Norwalk High School Class of 2026 Graduation

[0:00]Hello, welcome to the show. We got a very special guest for you today, one of my favorite authors and thinkers, and uh someone who's had a really profound impact on my life, and that's Paul Miller. He's the author of A Praying Life, one of the best selling books of the last decade for Christian publishers. And, uh, he's got a new book called J-Curve, which is just as profound and impactful. And so excited to have him on the show today. Paul, welcome to the show. John, it is great to be with you. I always look forward to being with you. So, uh, just to jump right in, uh, J-Curve, as I mentioned, the new book, it's, it's a phenomenal book. Uh, one of the things that, um, you talk about in that book is what it means to be a Christian. And, uh, you kind of have a unique take on that, but it's really, I think, very biblical. What does it mean to be a Christian according to the J Curve? Well, the subtitle of the book is, uh, Dying and Rising with Jesus. And so being a Christian means that we die and rise with Jesus. And what that means is that the Christian life is an actual experience, a felt experience. And there's some common themes in that experience. And what happens, actually, what the book talks about, is that we actually go down. We actually descend like Jesus descends to the cross, and then we ascend. And so Jesus goes through that pattern of a descent and an ascent. And then he says to his disciples, and to us, if you want to follow me, you have to do the same thing. You have to die to yourself and pick up your cross and follow me. So what the J-Curve does is it just unpacks that theme. And, uh, it's not a secret theme, but it's a theme that we haven't given a lot of language to. And so the J-Curve gives a language to this theme of dying and rising. And so the J is a downward movement and then an upward movement. So tell us a little bit more about that. I mean, it's obvious, you know, there's a downward slope in the J, and then there's an upward slope. And, uh, so, you know, you mentioned a lot of it earlier about how, you know, we, we descend, we die, and then we ascend and we rise. But tell us about what the dying looks like and what the rising looks like. Yeah, so the big point is that it's not simply an intellectual assent that we've died and risen with Christ, because that's what a lot of people think. Like, oh, yeah, I did that when I got saved. And the point is, it's actually an experience. And so the dying is not theoretical. It's an actual, for instance, you lose a job or you get married and it's not what you think. It's just the day-to-day disappointments of life, uh, or you have a conflict at work or you have a conflict with your spouse. And what happens, and this is what happens with all of us, is we, we face these situations and our response is to fix it. So we want to fix our marriage, we want to fix our child, we want to fix our work. Uh, we want to fix our pain. And the big idea of the J Curve is that the way to fix our pain, the way to fix our problems is to actually enter into them and to die in those problems. So, um, my wife Jill and I, we have a daughter who's severely disabled, and we've walked with her for fifty years. And the way we've handled that, we have a great life. We have a great marriage because we've died to our expectations. We've died to how we thought life should be. We've died to our reputation. We've died to our schedule. We've died to all of these things. And so that's the downward movement. The downward movement is always losing control. It's always the loss of something you want to control. And so the dying is losing control and then rising is Christ being Lord in your situation. And so you experience Christ in a new way, you experience his love, his power, his presence in a new way. So what's the difference between, you know, a life that, you know, maybe is just going through a hard time, and a life that's going through a hard time through the J curve? Because, you know, some people, when they go through a hard time, they just give up or they go to depression or, you know, it just, it's not a healthy process for them. But, uh, what's, what's the real difference in those two situations? Yeah, and the difference is hope. Uh, the difference is that if you understand this pattern that there is a downward movement and there is an upward movement, and that you're in good company, you're with Jesus. And so when you're going through a hard time, it's not like, oh, I'm doing something wrong. It's actually, oh, this is what it means to be a Christian. And so there's an actual hope that comes that even though I'm going down, I know I'm going to come back up. And so it doesn't mean that it removes the pain, but it puts the pain in context. And actually, it's interesting because often in those periods, you experience Christ in a new way. And so you're actually, you're not just hoping you're going to rise, you're actually getting glimpses of rising when you're still in the downturn. So I have a disabled daughter, but when I'm, when I actually release control to Christ and I experience his presence, I experience his love for me, I experience him guiding me. I'm actually rising, even though my disabled daughter is not being healed, I'm being healed. And so that's the difference is that you're not just hoping in general that things are going to get better. You're hoping in Christ and you're actually experiencing Christ. And that's the difference between somebody who's just depressed or somebody who's just giving up, they're not connecting with Christ. And so, so you really, I mean, you talk about this a lot in the book, um, but you emphasize how this is an actual experience, not just a mental assent, not just something that you believe. But, uh, you actually go through this process. You feel it, you experience it. And, uh, it's not always an easy process, but it's, it's something that, you know, we, we all go through. So, uh, what are some of the ways that, you know, we can recognize that we're actually in the J curve? Because a lot of people might be going through the J curve, but they don't even know it, right? Yeah, so the most common experience is that things aren't working out. You know, you want your child to be one way, and they're not. You want your marriage to be one way, and it's not. You want your job to be one way, and it's not. You want your church to be one way, and it's not. And so the typical human response is that we try to manipulate, we try to fix it. And so what happens is you're going down the J curve when you start saying, I can't fix this. And that's when you actually, you know, that you're in the J curve because you actually are having to release something. And so what it is, is it's actually just losing control. And so how do you know you're in the J curve? You know, you're in the J curve when you're actually losing control, when you're losing your ability to manipulate or to change a situation. And, uh, that's when you start to say, I'm desperate. I need help. And that's actually a wonderful place to be because that's when you start connecting with Christ. And so the J curve is really an invitation to be with Christ. So as you mentioned, I mean, the natural human tendency is to try to fix it, try to control it. But, uh, you're saying that the J curve, the, the natural next step in that is that you actually start to lose control, you start to lose your ability to fix it. And that's where, you know, we have to start leaning on Christ. And, uh, it's not just a religious thing, it's an actual experience. So, how, how do we experience Christ in that process? Yeah, so the big point is that the J curve is relational. It's not just like a moral thing that you're going through. It's actually, you're, you're with Christ. And so, for instance, when I have an argument with my wife, which happens like every five years, you know, it happens sometimes. And so what do I do? So typically, my pride will say, I want to win the argument. But if I die to that pride, if I say, I'm actually not going to win the argument, if I'm going to actually just listen to her, or I'm going to, uh, allow her to be right, or I'm going to actually try to understand her, or I'm going to, uh, just confess my sin. What happens when I die to my pride is I actually find Christ. And I experienced Christ, not just like a moral lesson, but I experienced the living Christ in my relationship with my wife. And so the J curve is really a way of knowing Christ, experientially. And so you're not just, again, you're not just intellectually agreeing with something. You're actually saying, this is how I experience Christ. I experienced Christ as I go down, and I experienced Christ in a new way as I come up. And so tell us a little bit more about, um, you know, how this book relates to your last book, A Praying Life. Because, uh, A Praying Life was also a very experiential book. You know, you, you really talk about how prayer isn't just something that you do on your knees, or it's not just something that you do in your quiet time, but it's an actual relationship. And you carry it with you all day long, wherever you go. And it seems like J-Curve is very similar in that sense. Yeah, and so J-Curve actually puts a Praying Life in context, because the book, A Praying Life, is all about the fact that we're children, and that God is our father. And so we're talking to our father about everything. And the reason we're doing that is because we're desperate. We can't fix things. And so the J-Curve is saying, uh, this experience of dying and rising is about our desperation. And so A Praying Life is the overflow of being in the J-Curve, because when you're in the J-Curve, you're desperate, you're losing control. And so what do you do when you lose control? You cry out to your father. And that's what A Praying Life is all about. And so the J-Curve basically gives the engine for A Praying Life. So tell us a little bit more about what that desperation looks like. I mean, what's a typical example, a situation that you, you know, maybe people are going through right now, and that's exactly what you're talking about in the J-Curve. Yeah, so the most common situation is you're mad at your spouse. Or, uh, you're trying to figure out how to parent your kids, and it's not working. Or you're in a job situation and you can't figure out, like, how to, uh, get out of the job, or how to, uh, be fruitful in the job. Or you're just discouraged because you, you know, you're in a season of waiting. And so these are all situations that, again, our natural response is we want to fix it. We want to control it. And the J Curve is saying, the way to fix it is to lose control. The way to fix it is to be in that downward movement. And so, so you're actually saying, when you're going through a problem, the best way to get through it, the best way to experience Christ and to rise up is to actually die to yourself in that problem. You're saying that you actually need to stop fighting it and you need to actually lean into the situation. Yeah, so it's a little bit like judo, where you use your opponent's weight against them. And so you're not resisting the pain, you're actually going into the pain. And so that's the J curve, is that you're going into the pain, and then you're, but you're not going into it alone. You're going into it with Christ. And so you're being with Christ in your circumstances. And so if somebody is, you know, going through a difficult time, and they want to apply the J-Curve principles to their life, where do they start? I mean, what's the, what's the first step that they take to actually experience this in their life? Well, the first step is to confess your sin, which is always the first step. So, for instance, with our disabled daughter, I confess that I want a different daughter, because that's what I want. But I confess that I want to control the situation. I want to control my spouse. I want to control my children. And so what happens is you start by saying, God, this is what I want. But I'm willing to give that to you. I'm willing to confess that I want to control. And so the dying always starts with confession of our sin. And then the second thing it starts with is it starts with actually crying out to God, asking him to meet you in your desperation. And so the J curve is, is not a self-help book, it's a Christ-help book. And so what you're doing is you're not trying to, um, manipulate your way out of it. You're actually asking Christ to be with you in the situation. So tell us a little bit more about how, you know, just some practical tips on how someone can actually practice the J Curve in their life. I mean, are there some things that we can do every day, or every week, that can help us, you know, really start to live this out? Yeah, so every day, one of the best things to do is to just confess the moment. So, like, I wake up in the morning and I'm irritated at something, or I'm worried about something. And so I just say, God, I'm irritated. God, I'm worried. And I die to my need to be in control, and I confess that I want to control my circumstances. And then I ask him to meet me. And so it's a daily practice. It's a moment by moment practice of dying to ourselves, and then rising by experiencing Christ's presence, his love, his power, his guidance in our lives. And so it's not a program. It's not a book that you say, oh, I'm going to do the J curve for six weeks, and I'll be done. It's a way of life, because the Christian life is dying and rising with Jesus. And so it's an ongoing, daily, moment by moment experience. So as you mentioned earlier, I mean, it's not a moral lesson. It's not something that, you know, you just mentally assent to. It's an actual experience. So, how, how do we experience God in this process? Because, you know, some people, when they go through a difficult time, they just feel like God is distant. But, uh, you're saying that this is actually a way to connect with God, and to actually experience him in a very real way. Yeah, and the way you connect with God is you actually get in touch with your emotions. So, for instance, when I have an argument with my wife, if I'm, if I'm honest, I'm irritated. I'm, uh, angry. I'm afraid. And so what happens is when I confess those emotions, when I confess, God, I'm mad at her. I'm mad at the situation. I'm mad at myself. What happens when you name that is that you actually, uh, open yourself up to Christ. Because what happens in the J curve is that God meets you in your raw emotions. He doesn't meet you, uh, when you're trying to be good or when you're trying to hide from him. He meets you when you actually say, I'm desperate. I need you. And so what happens is when you actually open yourself up to him and you confess your sin, you confess your need, you confess your irritation. You experience his love in a new way. You experience his presence in a new way. And so the J curve is really a way of actually being with Christ in your felt experience of your life. It's not theoretical at all. So it's really about being authentic with God, being authentic with yourself. And, uh, it's not just about, you know, being, uh, a good Christian, but it's about being a real person with God. And, uh, it's about, you know, just connecting with him in a very real, tangible way. So tell us a little bit more about what that looks like. I mean, what's a typical situation, a typical scenario where you're, you know, just being authentic with God. And, uh, you're just, you know, going through that process, you're being open and honest with him. Yeah, so the best example in the Bible is the Psalms. So if you read the Psalms, David is just open. He's like, I'm mad at you, God. I'm mad at myself. I'm mad at my enemies. And, uh, what happens is when you, when you're open with God, what happens is you actually connect with him. And so I'm writing a book on Lament right now. And, uh, Lament is crying out to God. And that's what the J curve is all about, because you're crying out to God from a place of desperation. And so for instance, when you're, you know, you're trying to parent your kids, and it's not working, and you're just mad, like, why can't my kids be like other kids? Well, when you confess that to God, and you say, God, I'm mad, or I'm afraid, or I'm disappointed, what happens is that you actually, uh, die to that need to control. And you allow God to speak to you. You allow God to meet you in your desperation. And that's where the rising happens. And so the J-Curve is really a book about how to experience God in your suffering. And it's about how to, you know, really connect with him in a very real, tangible way. And, uh, it's not just a mental exercise. It's an actual experience. So tell us a little bit about what that looks like. I mean, what's a typical situation, a typical scenario where you're, you know, just experiencing God in your suffering. And, uh, you're just, you know, going through that process, you're being open and honest with him. Yeah, so probably the most common experience is a marriage. Uh, you know, so, uh, you have a spouse who's difficult, or you have a spouse who's depressed, or you have a spouse who's just not, uh, connecting with you. And so what do you do with that? Well, the typical thing we do is we complain about them. We talk about them. We try to change them. And the J curve is saying, no, don't do that. What you do is you actually, uh, bring that to Christ. You bring your anger to Christ. You bring your disappointment to Christ. You bring your frustration to Christ. And what happens when you do that is you actually die to your expectations of your spouse. You die to your need to control your spouse. And you say, God, I can't do this. I need you to do this. And then you experience Christ meeting you in your desperation. You experience him loving you. You experience him giving you strength. You experience him guiding you. And so what happens is that you're actually with Christ in your marriage. And so it's a way of actually experiencing Christ in your marriage in a new way. And it's not a way of avoiding the pain, but it's a way of actually going through the pain with Christ. And that's the difference between somebody who's just giving up and somebody who's actually going through the J curve. So it's really about changing your perspective, changing your approach to the problem. And, uh, it's not about changing the problem itself. It's about changing how you respond to the problem. And, uh, it's about, you know, really leaning on God in that process. Yeah, and what it is is it's actually changing your, your expectations of yourself. Because what we want to do is we want to be in control. We want to control our spouse. We want to control our children. We want to control our job. And the J curve is saying, no, you need to die to that need to control. And so you actually stop trying to fix it. And you actually bring it to Christ. And that's where the rising happens. Because when you stop trying to fix it, Christ actually fixes it. And so it's a, it's a complete change of perspective. It's a complete change of approach. And, uh, it's a very counter-intuitive approach. So you're saying it's not just about, you know, being a good person, or doing good things, but it's about actually dying to yourself, dying to your own desires, your own expectations. And, uh, it's about, you know, really letting God take control. And, uh, it's about, you know, really leaning on him in that process. Yeah, so the big point is it's actually not about us. It's about Christ. And so the J curve is all about Christ. It's not about Paul Miller. It's about Christ. And so the dying is actually dying to our own self-sufficiency, dying to our own need to be in control. And then the rising is Christ actually being Lord in our situation. And so the J curve is a Christ-centered book. It's not a human-centered book. And that's the difference between the J curve and a lot of other self-help books. And so it's really about, you know, really recognizing that we're helpless without God. And, uh, it's about, you know, really leaning on him in that process. And, uh, it's about, you know, just letting him be God. Yeah, it's all about realizing our helplessness. And that's why it's so freeing, because what happens is when you realize you're helpless, you stop trying to fix it. And you allow God to be God. And you allow God to work in your situation. And so that's the joy of the J curve is that it's actually a freeing experience. It's not a burden. It's not a heavy thing. It's actually, you're being released from the burden of trying to control everything. And you're saying, God, I'm going to let you be God. And I'm going to let you work in my life. And that's where the joy comes from. So tell us a little bit more about that. I mean, what's a typical situation, a typical scenario where you're, you know, just experiencing that freedom. And, uh, you're just, you know, letting God be God, and you're just letting him work in your life. Yeah, so probably the most common experience is when you're praying for somebody, and they're not getting better. So you're praying for a child who's rebellious, or you're praying for a spouse who's depressed, or you're praying for a friend who's sick. And you're just like, God, why aren't you answering my prayers? And the J curve is saying, no, you need to die to your expectations of how God should answer your prayers. And you need to say, God, I'm going to trust you, even when I don't understand. And I'm going to let you be God, and I'm going to let you work in my life. And what happens when you do that is you actually experience a freedom that you've never experienced before. Because you're not trying to control God. You're not trying to manipulate God. You're actually saying, God, I'm going to let you be God. And I'm going to trust you with my life. And that's where the joy comes from. Well, Paul, this has been an incredible conversation. Uh, I know that your book, J-Curve, is going to have a profound impact on a lot of people's lives. And, uh, I just want to thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you, John. It's been a joy to be with you.