[0:01]The Joe Rogan experience. And there have been, you know, maybe four or five leading hypothesis about why women do it. And uh this is a one area where I've changed my mind on pretty dramatically. So early on a former student of mine, Marty Hazelton, who's now a professor at UCLA and other friends and colleagues like Steve Gangeste dead and Randy Thotho, put forward this idea that the reason women do it is that they're pursuing a dual mating strategy. That is they're trying to get investment from one guy, like the good dads, uh but good jeans from another guy. Oh, wow. And and so it's it's uh and But is there any research done on what type of mate a woman is likely to cheat on? Uh, well, that's that's a good question. So, um, there's been some and it's not conclusive, but basically the only way this could work, uh, and I have to back up just a second on that. We know that affairs are very costly for women. So if discovered, they result in um infidelities result in violence, sometimes they result in killing, you know, getting to the killing and if we want to get into that, maybe later in our conversation. They wrote a whole book on murder. I wrote a whole book on murder, yeah, uh, you know, uh, the murderer next door. Uh, but, um, uh, but also women suffer more than men if an infidelit is discovered. They suffer reputational damage, they suffer, uh, sometimes social ostracism. Uh, it's uh cataclysmic for their relationship. So, you know, it's in fact, it's one of the leading causes of divorce worldwide across cultures, uh is if there's a female infidelity. Um and so and so the issue is what benefit could be so great to a woman that she's willing to risk all the all these costs if it's discovered. And so the good jeans dual mating strategy argument could work in principle, um, and it would could work if there were no costs. And this is, you know, one of the reasons why men and women, um, commit infidelities in in secret, you know, it's been driven underground. They don't people don't go on Twitter and say, hey, I, hey, I just had an affair on my partner. You know, um, uh, it's driven underground, people try to keep it under wraps so they don't experience the cost. And of course, there are costs to men as well by being discovered. They're just not as uh cataclysmic as they are as they are for women. So, the only way it would work though, is if the getting back to your original question, uh is if there's a a large discrepancy between the woman's regular partner, uh and her affair partner in terms of the quality of his genes. And so what these um, these good jeans dual mating strategy theorist proposed is that there are certain markers of good genetic quality. They hypothesized masculine features, um, and there's a logic behind that. Uh, they hypothesized symmetrical features. So we are a bilaterally symmetrical species, so normal development, you know, we have, you know, our hands or arms or legs grow, you know, more or less symmetrically. But there are things that cause deviations from symmetry, so, um, mutations of genetic mutations can cause deviations, um, diseases can cause asymmetries, um, and environmental insults in a variety of ways. And so what they, the good jeans theorists are argued is that if someone is, uh, if a male is very symmetrical, then that's a marker that he's um not experienced a history of disease or environmental insults, um, or a high mutation load. Uh, or has a a, what they call a developmental system that's very kind of impervious to these insults. So, even though they've suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, they still maintain that symmetry. Well, I think there are, there are problem problems with that. But anyway, um, uh, back to, uh, to backtrack a second, why I changed my mind. So I used to advocate this, well, it seems it's logically plausible, um, uh, but I started to doubt it. And I started to doubt it for two reasons. One is, um, some, um, replications, some larger scale replications, uh, of the work started to fail to replicate, uh, the original findings. So what they did is, how did they, how did they test this? What they looked at is, do women change their preferences when they're ovulating? So, because it's only in that narrow window of ovulation that she's going to be getting the good genes. So, so what they looked at is women's normal mate preferences and then attract them over the ovulation cycle and do they change to prefer more masculine, more symmetrical features when they're ovulating and then go back to their normal preferences? And the initial study suggested, yes, they do. Um initial study suggested that when women have affairs, it tends to coincide with when they're ovulating and some other things like that. How do they gather this data? Uh, well, it's very difficult and time-consuming data, but, um, you know, it started out with crude methods such as estimating the woman's time of ovulation through a backward through a backwards counting method. But I mean, how do they get people to even become a part of a study where they admit that they have cheated on their husbands? Oh, well, so that's so that that's a that's a different question. What they, this studies just looked at changes in mate preferences. So, Well, you're talking about affairs. It's not just changes in mate preferences, it's a decision to have intercourse. With someone other than your husband, how do you how do you run a study like that? Right, right, and and they haven't much studies like that. So they they haven't said it. Oh, no, no, So, how do they know? Uh, they don't. It it's just do the mate preferences change at ovulation in the predicted in the ways predicted by the theory. Okay, so how would they find that out? How would they find out if a woman's mate strategies change, and if her preferences changed based on ovulation? So they basically get women and then they track them throughout the cycle. Uh and so and so they can do this. Now they they can do it through, uh, hormonal assets. Uh so there are, you know, ovulation kits that they can, um, assess the width. So what do they have like a, like a like a survey they fill out like who you track to today, Harry Styles. What about tomorrow? Something like that. Jason Momoa, I must be ovulating. Right, right, or basically they show photographic images and so they women just rate, oh, how attractive is this guy? Uh and so what they find and then they independently they can assess masculinity like like Jason, how do you pronounce the name? Momoa. Aquaman. Uh, yeah, he's, um, like super mascu I, I remember him, uh, I don't think I saw Aquaman, but I remember him from, uh, Game of Thrones. Yeah. Conan the Barbarian, too. Yeah, uh, so yeah, he would be a perfect example, highly masculine. Yeah. Features, you know, the, uh, um, square jaw, heavy brow, you know, uh, uh good, um, shoulder to hip ratio. So, uh, you know, typically masculine features, uh, and so, and so they will look at, do women rate the photos of these masculine and symmetrical guys more attractive when they're ovulating than when they're not ovulating? That's basically what what they did. And, um, uh, the bottom line is there, there are some conceptual problems with that, you know, does symmetry and masculinity, why are these the soul features that mark good jeans because they're also a Zillion things that have modera hair ability. It's one of the things we know from the hair ability studies. Um, but here's the, here's the what really convinced me. So, so one is the failures to replicate those studies. So the larger scale studies failed to find those preference shifts at ovulation. But when you start to when I started to look at the literature about women who are having affairs and the reasons that they're having affairs and the nature of the affairs, there are things that cropped up like like this, um, 79% when study found 79% of women fell in love with or became emotionally involved with her affair partner. And to me, this is exactly the opposite of what you'd want if you're trying to pursue that dual mating strategy idea. You want, you you want to get the good genes and then forget about the guy. And so as not to jeopardize your investment from the regular partner. Um, and so, and so it's really it's a design feature that's counter to that notion. Can I stop you here? Doesn't it, but it seems to me that you're pursuing this like as if it's a logical endeavor that's based on trying to achieve an outcome. And I think it's far more likely you're dealing with mental illness, alcohol, you know, uh uh emotional imbalance, uh extreme desire for attention, narcissism, which leads people to seek out exorbitant amounts of attention from other people. Like you have to take that into account, don't you? Yeah, yeah, okay, so and and that's a fair point and those things, um, aren't necessarily inconsistent if you ask like, what, who has affairs and what are their personality characteristics? Okay, but affairs happen in all cultures, or virtually all cultures, unless the women are extremely cloistered as they are in some cultures where they're like, they cannot leave the home without a male bodyguard. Right. Um, but affairs happen in all cultures and so a a competing hypothesis about why and this is the one I'm currently um putting my money on if there's a a horse race is what I call the mate switching hypothesis. Uh and and this is the notion that women who are in relationships, who are, and where the relationship is going south. Perhaps the partner starts out looking promising but has failed to live up to his promise. Perhaps he becomes an alcoholic or a drug addict or loses his job, uh, or, um, or starts abusing her, starts beating her up, that that women use affairs as a mate switching device, either to divest herself of her regular partner, um, or and or to trade up in the mating market to someone who's more desirable or to make it easier to transition back into the mating market on the notion on the assumption that she'll be able to find someone more desirable out there. Uh, and so, and so there's, um, uh, at least a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that supports the mate switching hypothesis, like the one I just mentioned. Um, women with 79% with 79% of women becoming emotionally involved or falling in love with their partner, this suggests, you know, it's not just, oh, I'm seeking transient attention, uh, as you mentioned, some women might do it for that, of course. Um, but it suggests that there, um, uh, forming a long-term attachment to this other guy rather than the regular partner. So here's here's another one. And this may seem like super, super obvious.
[14:14]Um, is that women who are unhappy with their regular relationship, either sexually unhappy or generally unhappy with their overall relationship, they're more likely to have affairs. Now this seems like the most obvious thing in the world, right? Yeah, sure, tell me something I don't your grandmother couldn't tell you, you're unhappy in the relationship, you're more likely to have an affair. Uh, but it turns out the same is not true for men. That is there at least some studies that show that if you compare men who have affairs with men who don't, there's no difference in how happy they are with the relationship. Um, and that's why you can have men and just to bring up, I don't know, movie star examples, um, uh, like uh, this is an older one, but Hugh Grant was, um, involved with Elizabeth Hurley, I don't know if you remember. Yeah, that that one and he's like having sex with a prostitute in LA. Why why is he, uh, uh cheating with Elizabeth Hurley? Um, kind of crazy. Now, in his case, in that case, uh, the male motivation for affairs differs on average substantially from the female motivation. Uh and that is that men are, uh, have this tremendous desire for sexual variety, meaning a variety of sex partners. Uh men tend to have a higher sex drive uh in general on average, uh and so they try to satisfy. So even even men who are involved with they're married to classically beautiful, beautiful women, sometimes have affairs and people are very puzzled by this, but that desire for sexual variety is what drives most men into it. You know, it's like, well, I think it was Chris Rock said, you know, men are only as faithful as their opportunity. You get a low cost opportunity, a lot of men act on it. You know, if you're uh like an academic, you're away at a conference, you're in a different town, you know, uh, some fall into bed with someone else. One night stand a brief affair and and that's that. Um, uh, but women, it it's really different. Of course, some women do it just for sexual variety, too. Uh, but that's a minority. If you ask if you ask the question, why do most women have an have an affair? I think that's the mate switching notion.
