[0:00]France invented a lot of early technologies in the world.
[0:10]But today, if you look at the scenario, the largest technology companies in the world are either American or Chinese. Many of them are led by Indian origin CEOs. Where did France lack? I I I think the missing point is first scale, not just for the French but for all the Europeans. Second, capital. And the third point, we have to find more appetite for risk.
[0:36]France has been an all-weather friend for India. The question is no longer whether India innovates. The question is, who will innovate with India?
[0:50]And France is unique clear answer. Jai ho. Do you think this is going to be an example for the world that now the new world order is about multipolarity? Do you think India and France are setting an example? French President Emmanuel Macron is the chief guest. President Emmanuel Macron has been invited as the chief guest at Republic Day parade. We developed within past few years a series of cooperation and partnership in many sectors with your country. I I I really believe that when we team up, we deliver. Second, we don't want to be dependent on one of the two big power.
[1:32]We want to have a good relationship with the US and China. We have different relationship by the way with both of them between India and France. And we are supporter of this approach.
[1:44]India leapfrogged in technology. Our Aadhaar, UPI, DigiLocker, things like this, we created and got so many people in the system, right? If you have to bet on one technology for France, which will be your moonshot for 2035? Quantum computer would be where we can take the lead and have a leadership. Quantum computers. Whatever on earth is a quantum computer? Whichever nation first develops a practical quantum computer will have a tremendous advantage. Quantum supremacy. Is it's a work happening in the backend? Yeah, I think so, because we have a unique mathematicians, new capacities, and a lot of very performing startups and labs.
[2:27]I saw that you announced about 109 billion euros, one year ago, for the AI infrastructure, for the technology to lead it forward, But here's a question. Out of that, 50 billion euro is coming from UAE. So money is foreign funded, infrastructure is going to be largely owned by the UAE. The technology and intelligence is coming from America and China. What's going to be sovereign about this when it's actually a collaboration of the world, not just Europe? If some founder is watching this, or a student who's 22 year old is watching this, they want to come to France. Then what does France offer, which today a US and UK doesn't offer for the young startup founders or people who want to build for the future? A unique ecosystem. First, I want to convey a message to your your students, Indian students. If you come to France, you can get access to the best quality universities and high schools. Second, the language is clearly is English, and I really believe that France provides a unique mix of large companies, a lot of institutions. At the same time it has the most vibrant startups and innovation ecosystem in Europe.
[3:39]Donald Trump shared your private messages. Private message meant for diplomacy has exploded into a public political storm. He threatened to put 200% tariff on you. You've called his administration anti-Europe. Does this convey something about American leadership today? Should the world be scared? I really believe that respect is part of leadership. You can share ideas or not, you can disagree. But you have to do it in a respectful way, within democracies as well. This is why I've always been extremely committed to fight against any sort of hatred speech or violence in our societies, because when you have democracy, you have the right to change your leadership, you are you decide who will take the law and pass the law on your behalf. So no need to be violent and disrespectful. But
[4:28]Me and my team, we are trying really hard and trying all our best to make sure that India's voice reaches at the world stage. And for that, I have a favor to ask from you. If you have ever gotten value from this channel, please subscribe to our channel. It's free and it takes only one second. Because the more you subscribe, the more our chances get to get the kind of guess which we have today on our show. Our today's guest is President of French Republic, Emmanuel Macron. It's his first ever podcast in the world. This is for the first time it's happening on our show on figuring out. We've spoken about India and France relationship. We've spoken about his relationship with America, his relationship with world leaders. We've spoken about what is Europe trying to do differently? What does it mean for India? How is he making sure that India not only becomes a trade partner, but a strategic partner in the world which is heading towards multipolarity? How do we challenge the global world order and do we even challenge or no? All these questions have been answered by the French President in today's podcast. Beyond the honor, we see this as a responsibility, because when someone like President Macron sits down with us, it's an opportunity to talk about India. What we are getting right, where we are heading, and what the world needs to understand about India, about us right now, so that we can show the world where India stands and what are we doing. And get the presidents and the global leaders perspective on it as well. So thank you so much for being part of this journey. And for the audio experience of this podcast, please follow us on Spotify.
[6:20]Thank you so much to for doing this and agreeing to do your first podcast with us. It's a pleasure. This is mine. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I'm happy to be in Mumbai with you. Tell me, before we start actually, for 0.01% people who don't know who you are and they're watching you for the first time, they have no clue. What would you tell them about yourself in next 30 seconds? Who you are and what do you do? I'm French guy. Here in Mumbai because I'm invited invited by your Prime Minister. And I'm happy to be here by the way.
[7:03]And involved in a in a in a very peculiar job. And for for the past few years. And uh full of appetite and enthusiasm especially for other culture. Lovely. And you're also an enthusiast, I saw that yesterday, that you're the guy who loves breaking protocol and running around in the street with jog, right?
[7:25]Exactly, we do jog yesterday morning. It was a little bit hectic, because of I mean, the all all the traffic in the city. But it it was great. And I'm in this fun first week exercise and second to to have the interactions without too much security. You always have a little bit security, but when it's uh I would say unexpected and not organized, you can indeed break the protocol. So early in the morning, I I went to jog and uh and uh later in the evening I went to your to the station to as well see your your beautiful architecture and not just architecture but this uh the city. Yeah. Okay, let's dive into the technology part because I love what you're doing these days. I went through so many of your speeches and the reason that you're here. You know, I was reading a lot of history and I I found out that France invented a lot of early technologies in the world, right? But today, if you look the scenario, the largest technology companies in the world are either American or Chinese. Many of them are led by Indian origin CEOs. What do you think, where did France lack? Like what happened? Is it the culture, is it the taxes or is it something about the way Europe thinks about failure and risk? A mix of that, probably. But you're right to say that uh we've had a lot of great researchers, scientists. We invented a lot of a lot of big innovation. Even if science is a is a global approach and cooperation between academics and researchers all over the world is what makes sense and not just one country. But we we do have this uh this culture of uh research, invention, entrepreneurship as well. As always, remind people that entrepreneur is a French world. And uh and uh and we we are still extremely active. If you take in Europe, probably the two main ecosystem in terms of innovation, startups, AI, Quantum, are are France and UK, uh largely heard of the others. And uh and uh and if you take um math and a lot of uh uh a lot of disciplines, we we're still in very in a very good position. But it's true that when you when you look at the um the tech sector, it's largely driven by the US, the the I mean, this big seven companies. And uh and uh and the Chinese company. Why? First, you have a question of scale. I I I really believe that uh Europe is the right approach. And um still in the digital sector, but in a lot of sectors, we are too much fragmented. So I I I think the missing point is first scale, not just for the French but for all the Europeans. So we have to finalize to strengthen uh our our single market, to be sure that your domestic market is a 450 million inhabitants market, meaning Europe and not just France. Second, capital. In the US, you have a lot of capital, a lot of deep pockets, so they invest a lot of money. And uh and uh and the paradox is that in Europe you have a lot of savings, much more than in the US. But this saving is not properly invested because of a too much uh uh I mean, too many regulations in the banking and insurance sector. And the structure of our of our financing system, which is unadapted to uh to uh the tech industry because we are this this savings are are largely channeled towards the bond market. Or they they go outside Europe to search profitability. And the third point, you mentioned it and I I fully agree with you, is probably um we have to find um more more appetite for risk.
[11:41]Should be more much more risk-taker. So scale, money and risk-taking mindset. So you sort of are addressing these things in multiple of your speeches and conversations. I saw that you announced about 109 billion euros, one year ago, for the AI infrastructure, for the technology to lead it forward, right? But here's a question, that you talk about scale, you talk about risk and you talk about investments. Out of that almost 100 billion euros, 50 billion euro is coming from UAE, right? Then so money is foreign funded, infrastructure is going to be largely owned by UAE. The technology and intelligence is coming from America and China, and you are talking about Europe and building sovereign Europe AI. What's going to be sovereign about this when it's just it's actually a collaboration of the world, not just Europe? This is a very good question, in fact. Um, one year ago we we announced this 109 billion euro investments, uh, which which is a big bunch of money. And we are deploying it by the way, because more than 60% is already deployed and and we plugged a lot of sites. It's it's in order to build data centers. Uh you're right. We speak about UAE, US projects. Why? Because the the technology is largely in the US. But this data center which will be deployed in France will be used as well by our own players. If you don't have the computing capacities, you cannot deploy. And we are we there are more cash today in the Gulf, and the technology for data centers in the US. But what we want to do is not to buy the solution. When we when you want to be more sovereign, more independent, you want to transfer technologies and attract for indirect investment. This is exactly what we are doing. I created eight years ago an event called Choose France, where a lot of Indian players come every year. And and and this event plus all the reforms we implemented made France number one in terms of attractiveness during the past six years. And and and this is good. What we what what we what you mentioned, I mean, this AI data centers and all these investments are good for the European sovereignty. Why? They are located in my country. Second, they could be used by my by my players. So it would improve my AI ecosystem. Third, it will transfer a lot of these technologies. And fourth, it's I have the guarantee that these solutions are compliant with the European regulation. What's your what what's the alternative to that? As I don't have the technology and not the cash, it's not to make this investment and to buy elsewhere. If you buy just solutions, you buy solutions and you provide your data without any protection for your data and without any tech transfer. So I think it's a much better solution. So we don't take all in this market. And the the big winners were this uh this US hyperscalers. So you have to work with them but to to encourage and force sometimes them to to comply with your markets. And in parallel, you have to accelerate the deployment of your own solutions. If you take LLMs, we have Mistral AI, which is probably the I mean, the the which is definitely the best European player. And a clear alternative of the uh uh US LLMs. So this is what we are doing. Interesting. So one more thing you would need in this is attracting talent. Attracting founders from all around the world. And attracting students at the same time. Right now there are about 9,300 students from India in France. You want them to go to 30,000, right? So every founder who's watching this, you have announced F station in France made it a big startup world for everyone. So if some founder is watching this or a student who's 22 year old is watching this, they want to come to France. Then what does France offer, which today a US and UK doesn't offer for the young startup founders or the people who want to build for the future? A unique ecosystem. First, I want to convey a message to your your students, Indian students. If you come to France, you can get access to the best quality universities and high schools, from Polytechnique to Paris Sorbonne, from uh École Normale Supérieure to uh a lot of engineers schools.
[16:17]Second, the language is clearly is English. So because I know that a lot of sometimes uh uh received as a fact that you will be taught in in French, which is totally wrong.
[16:33]So you you have the opportunity to have the obviously all these years in the in the English language, but you get access as well to um the diversity of the language, which is very important, and when you are Indian, you know that, given the number of official language and this this diversity is the source of of um not just energy but creativity.
[19:15]And and in this world given the current environment, never forget that the most important thing is to share unique moments and experience.
[19:29]True. Tell me, apart from culture, art, taste, okay, we're talking about technology. India leapfrogged in technology when it comes to DPI, our Aadhaar, UPI, DigiLocker, things like this. We created and escaped the 10 years of financial exclusion and actually now build got so many people in the system, right? If you have to bet on one technology for France, which will be your moonshot for 2035, which technology would you bet on that the France will lead and dominate the world in? First, let me let me say how how right you are when you mention India. I mean your country is super impressive in terms of indeed leapfrogging, but educating people and training people. I mean, today in in India you you you you train every year more engineers than in US and Europe together. Yeah. So it's I mean it's such a resource, it's unique. And it means a lot of talent, a lot of people and on top of that, you have you leapfrog in terms of education and competence. And you you have the same appetite of an big emerging countries. And you you were right to mention payment system and UPI, and I'm obsessed by that, because by the way, a lot of people are are super dependent on your solution, on payment. I mean, it happened that in France, we we do have our own solution as well with the the cart blue system, but it's uh UPI reached such a scale in such a few years that it's very impressive. It's very hard to say what the moonshot will be because you never know. And especially as a president, it's very hard to say it will be this one as a moonshot because it's not the way innovation function. You will probably lose several times and the one you didn't see will will be the one to succeed. I think the most important thing is to be sure that you provide the capacities and all the opportunities for a series of of very disruptive innovation to succeed. And to make sure that one of them will succeed and to accept that a lot of others will fail. And and if I if I if I accepted to take the risk of your question, I would say, uh probably uh uh in Quantum. I would say, uh Quantum computer will be where we can we can we can take the lead and have uh uh a leadership. And I think it's a work happening in the backend, right? Yeah, I think so because we have a unique mathematicians, new capacities and a lot of very performing startups and labs. So I I really believe that in this field, we can we can deliver and and have a moonshot. But but more more than that, I I I just want to convey a very simple message, when we speak about innovation and moonshot, it it's it's all about taking risk and it's all about accepting to lose. True. And it seems to be super counterintuitive. But if you want to think and deliver big, you have to take a lot of risks. Accept by chance, you'll never succeed the first time. So if you don't accept to to fail and to start again, you will never succeed. And for me, the question for innovators, but it's true for countries and so on, is not to have people being super successful the first time. It's doesn't exist, but it's to make sure that we have people ready to to lose eight times, but try nine times.
[23:23]Yeah. You know, moving away from technology because you said it, right? It's it's a mix of risk and accepting that you'll fail. And yet, even if you know there are five things which are popping right now, you can't choose which one is going to dominate, right? But one thing you seem to be very certain about, which is very reflective in your relationship with our country, which is France has been an all-weather friend for India. It's not only a good weather friend, right? And you can see that, like when the world is again France all all is stood up, your relationship with Prime Minister Modi has actually deepened as well. And after 2018, the Indo-Pacific announcement in the world, our relationship has gotten even more stronger, right? This kind of geopolitical certainty and friendship is rare to see in the world. Do you think it this is going to be an example for the world that now the new world order is about multipolarity, where things are going to be balanced in friendships and not going to be one sided? Do you think India and France are setting an example? I really believe that when we team up, we deliver. We launched together with Prime Minister Modi the Solar Alliance initiative. We deliver. We launched together during the G20 the iMac. We had delivered, and we will deliver. We decided together to deal with the artificial intelligence and the global regulation or conversation we are doing it. Last year in France during our action summit, now in India. So I I think we we clearly delivered concrete results because it's based with all our differences. Because we we we we are different as countries, as civilizations, as people, but I have indeed this great relation with your Prime Minister and our countries have this great relation. Why? Because we have beyond these differences, similarities. A taste for for precisely culture, innovation and diversity, I would say. When you speak to a French person, I mean the the relationship with the language with multilingualism and the respect of Francophonie is super important. When I see your Prime Minister, he is is uh he speaks in Hindu and uh and uh and I know the diversity of your languages creates something very special because we don't like uniformity. Second, we don't want to be dependent on one of the two big power. We want to have a good relation with the US and China. We have different relationship by the way with both of them between India and France. But it was the all rational of of the Indo-Pacific approach, meaning a third way. Yeah. Something which is I will not be confrontational with you, but I don't want to be dependent on you. Let me let me build my own future in full respect. And and based on that, this is the fact that we really believe both India and France that democracy, rule of law, multilateralism, delivering concrete results, make sense. And we are supporter of this approach. And in this world where the rule of law is very often replaced by, I would say, the order of the strongest. I really believe it makes sense and it's super attractive because you can gather a lot of a lot of people, a lot of countries, a lot of good will. So this is where I really believe that this approach and our partnership is not just meaningful, but has a much more potential than what we see today. True. You know, even Europe is realizing now that strategic autonomy is the way forward, not choosing one side.
[27:21]And PM Modi's brand is about choosing a strategic autonomy. We we honor the Russian friendship, yet deepen relationship with US. We build our relationship with France and deal with the rest of the world. So he has stood by it. Do you think your your way of thinking and like Europe's way of thinking is now also being inspired by India and PM Modi now that strategic autonomy is the way forward, not choosing sides anymore? Look, I really believe that the fact that we built this partnership and this trade agreement, this free trade agreement between Europe and the and India, is obviously due to the period of time where there is increasing skepticism or frustration vis-a-vis the US, given the recent attitude. And a lot of Europeans now see that India is a the biggest place where we can build this new partnership. But I really believe as well that um I I advocated nine years ago a more sovereign Europe. I pushed this um this approach of strategic autonomy of the Europeans. Some colleagues did follow me and wanted to cooperate. Some of those were super skeptical, saying, okay, this is a French idea. It will never work. And some others were still in in the certainty that the relationship with the US is something with which will never change and that this is a geopolitical umbrella and uh and strong alliance, which will always deliver. I mean, all this approach collapsed. And uh and not to say that we want to be confrontational with the US. I mean, the more intense our relation could be, the more happier I will be. But having an ally, having a friend doesn't mean that you're dependent on your friend. True. And and I I really believe that when when a lot of Europeans see that this approach is adopted by a country like India, it gives them more more trust and uh they accept to be probably a little bit bolder. So I I really believe on uh on the potential of this uh relation as well, because it's it will increase what we want to do together, meaning being more independent. And once once again, what do we want to be more independent? First, because we are obsessed by this uh sovereign approach. What does it mean sovereign? Our fellow citizens decide for themselves. If you are dependent technologically or or regarding defense issues, you cannot guarantee your fellow citizens that they will decide. So in in certain way, it's a bias in the democracy because I ask you to vote, but you will never decide if if you go this way or this way because you have no choice. True. So the strategic autonomy is super important when you are a strong democracy. And second, because we are both of us, I mean, India and France, very much attached to diversity, as I mentioned, and the strength of this diversity. And we don't want to be part of a big uniformity. You know, we believe we believe in this approach, but recently, like Donald Trump shared your private messages, like WhatsApp, right? He threatened to put 200% tariff on you. You've called his administration anti-Europe. And a lot of like, tacit. What do you think? What does it tell the world that one of the most powerful people in the world is sharing messages publicly?
[30:51]Like, do you think that does this convey something about American leadership today? Should the world be scared? I mean, I let you judge and your question means bias of something. I really believe that respect is part of the leadership. And we have to provide respect to each other. You can share ideas or not, you can disagree. But you have to do it in a respectful way. Between leaders, but within democracies as well. This is why I've always been extremely committed to fight against any sort of hate speech or violence in our societies. Because when you have democracy, you have the right to change your leadership. You decide who will take the law and pass the law on your behalf. So no need to be violent and disrespectful. But respect was built and everything which goes with the civilization process was built years after years, decades after decades, in order to improve ourselves.
[31:57]And and it's a little bit surprising, I I really believe, for people to see leaders going backward. Yeah. And it's not the right message. True. You know, do you think that the dollar dominance is ending?
[32:15]Because India is now dealing in rupees. China is pushing yuan. You talk about the energy trades in euros. Do you think the dollar dominance in the world is now going to end? I would be super careful. Today, the dollar is clearly dominating the world. I really believe that I strongly believe in the in a multipolar order. And I will do whatever I can to strengthen the international role of Europe. What does you what does it mean? We have to be more innovative. We have to be more competitive. We have to invest much more. We have to on top of the trade agreements we signed, to sign swap lines, to have Euro as a as the exchange currency. And we have to make sure that Euro is is seen by the key central bankers of this world as an alternative to the dollar, meaning we have to provide more Euro as a safe and liquid asset. We have everything to succeed in this strategy, and it will be one of the element of a more sovereign Europe and and a more independent Europe. I really believe it's possible. We have a window of opportunity, but it would be wrong to say that it's the case today. Interesting. You know, you talk about window of opportunity, and that gets me to my last question, that your term will eventually end. You might be able to take this window of opportunity or you might not be, right? You're deepening ties with India, you're building you're uniting Europe way more than ever. You have led France through uncertain times. You have been the youngest President in French history. You've done it all. But even after all these achievements, this window of opportunity might you might be able to achieve it or not.
[34:16]But that is not certain. But what is certain is your term will end, right? What scares you about the world right now after your term ends? What about the world gives you a lot of optimism after that your term ends? Look, um what provides me a lot of optimism is the fact that more and more people are are well educated. I really believe we have to do much more again, because still you have 100 millions of an abidence in this continent, in Africa where we have to improve the level of education to to allow them to have more opportunities. But it never existed in uh to have such a world where so so many billions of an abidence have this level of education and training. And for me, this is a source of optimism because it means that you have a a lot of young people with brain and enthusiasm. And they will invent something better, for sure. I mean, for the world, in terms of innovation, culture, and how to deal with climate change and biodiversity, how to. So I I see that as a unique opportunity and to be to be cherished because clearly this is something we delivered during the past few years and still to be improved.
[35:46]What what what scares me is uh the lack of uh I would say predictable and reliable framework in terms of defense and security. I think we enter during the past few years into uncharted territories. And the fact that Russia decided to launch this crazy war in Ukraine, having a permanent member of the security Council of the UN with nuclear deterrence deciding to launch a war, which is a 19th century war, meaning revising the border and trying to be in a sort of neocolonial approach, is totally crazy, but triggered a series of reactions everywhere. And I think the fact that yes, today a lot of big countries and big leaders seems not to see international order and the charter of the UN as sort of our common code and common rules. And second, this this race for for more defense equipments, arms and ammunitions is something very worrying. And I think part of the work I have to deliver in the 15 months to come is obviously to make France credible in this race. But on the other side as well, to start engaging with a lot of countries to build a new framework in order to to limit your capacity to to have a misuse, an appropriate use of this this arms and ammunitions. Does that scare you ever that you might not be able to finish it in next 15 months? I it doesn't scare me. It pushed me to be more more energetic and to to do my my best in order to to just to do it. So I'm I'm always in the action mode, I would say. Yeah. You are. You are. You are always in action mode. And I'm going to tell you in the end, I loved that speech of yours where you said plug baby plug. It was one year ago, at the DGA summit. Yeah, I summit. It was really good. Thank you so much for doing this. I know we are short on time. Or else I would have spent like three hours digging deep in your mindset. Thank you so much for giving us this opportunity. I want to thank you. And you can be very proud of what your country is achieving in all the different fields, in innovation, tech, culture, and the and the message you're providing to the rest of the world. And it was it was great for me in Mumbai here this morning to share this uh this out with you. So thank you for taking the time.
