[0:00]what can other brands learn from this particular case study, you know, in the, you know, we stand for this, people like us do stuff like this. So let's talk about the difference between a logo and a brand, right? Because companies spend way too much time on their logo, just like people on YouTube spend way too much time on their hair, I'm told they spend way too much time on their hair. If Nike owned, opened a hotel, I think we would be able to guess pretty accurately what it would be like. If Hyatt came out with sneakers, we'd have no clue, because Hyatt doesn't have a brand. They have a logo. If I swap the signs on a hotel, at that price point, you couldn't tell if you're a Marriott, if you're a Hilton, if you're a Hyatt, the hallway, the room. I don't know, where am I? No brand. So what it means to have a brand is you've made a promise to people. They have expectations, it's a shorthand, what should I expect the next time? And if that is distinct, you've earned something. If it's not distinct, let's admit, you make a commodity and you're trying to charge just a little bit extra for peace of mind. The problem that Hyatt and Hilton and Marriott and the rest have is sort by price. Because if I go online now to find a hotel, it's really simple, sort by price. Why would I pay $200 extra to go a block away? I don't. So what's the value of a brand? The value of a brand is how much extra am I paying above the substitute? And if I'm not paying extra, you don't have a brand.
[1:48]Here we are. Hey, hey, hey. It's that time again. It feels like every year we we get back together and we chit-chat a little. You're like Santa Claus, but with wisdom and insight. Once a year you show up for my chimney and we have a conversation. I always look forward to this. Um, I'm not going to ask you how you got this job this time because after half a dozen times, I think I know the story. But I do want to know about this book. I want to know, I mean, I've always thought of you as the Godfather of marketing. You know, if if Peter Drucker is, you know, old school, not outdated, but just like, you know, he came before, he's the previous generation. I always think of Seth as the new generation, uh the ring. And so, help me understand. This seems to me to be like the quintessential book on marketing. What what's your take? The thing is I don't do any consulting, because I don't have the patience for it. And what I love to do is find people I care about who are doing work that I'm proud of and give them free advice. How can they achieve their goals and bringing their work to people who need it. And what happened was, after the 50th time I heard myself saying the same things again and again, I started this seminar, the marketing seminar, which lives online. And it's not inexpensive, but it's really effective. It's a hundred day seminar, with so far 6,600 people have taken it. And what happens inside it is I was watching people interact with my lessons. I put 50 lessons together, and seeing how they interpreted them and watching them change and watching their work get better. So it occurred to me, I don't know why it took so long, oh, I know how to make books. Maybe I'll turn this into a book for people who don't necessarily want to commit the time to being part of a seminar. And one thing led to another and the book became the book that it is now, which is, yes, my version of, if advertising had never existed, if David Ogilvy had never existed, if the old model, which was so magical, wasn't available, because I don't think it is, if I could teach marketing to someone, what would I teach them? So there's nothing in, I think the word Twitter might appear once in the whole book. It's not about social media, it is not about growth rating points or even conversion. It's about work that matters for people who care. So, break it down for me, kind of what's what's the path, you know, what is the method to the madness of laying out the chapters in the order that you did or does the order not matter? So the order, we you have to begin by undoing the marketing of marketing. You have to undo this idea that marketing is selfish, that marketing is a scam, that marketing is this short-term interruption thing. So I spend a bunch of time on that. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, because I'm saying to you, you're a marketer, and it's not an insult, it's a compliment. Because what marketers do is we make change happen. Okay, which change? For who? So the first third of the book is what marketers do is we decide, who we are seeking to change, who's it for, and what's it for? And I'm amazed at how often people don't even consider this. They think they're making average stuff for average people, and if they just yell at about it enough, then their Kickstarter will hit $19 million. Well, yeah, every once in a while, a Kickstarter needs to do that, but almost none of them do. That the truly successful ones, or the truly successful online stores, or local bakeries, or the person who's trying to raise money for their charity are specific, they're not general. So that's the first part. And then I get to this idea that culture defeats everything. If you've got culture at your back, what you're doing is easy. And if you're trying to change the culture, it's difficult. So what is culture? Culture is people like us do things like this. How do we break that into pieces? Who are the people like us? What are the things like this? Then I do uh a turn into something that some people think is distracting, but is in fact at the core of some of the big ideas here, which are, human beings make decisions based on status. Not the status of I have a fancier car than you, that's part of it, but the status of who eats lunch first and the status of who is moving up and who is not moving up. And what does that even mean to us? That informs culture. And then I talk about affiliation versus dominance, because I see that more and more everywhere I look. Okay, so now that we've laid that out, now we can get into some of the tactics. The tactics of are you a brand marketer or a direct marketer, because they're fundamentally different things. And most people were brand marketers before the Internet, but the Internet rings a bell and says, if you're a direct marketer, this is here for you. And then I came around full circle and I end with a little bit of a of a rant about is the work we do evil? Are we responsible for it? And if we are responsible for it, what are we doing here with this super powerful tool? And this tool we each have is more powerful than the assembly line was in 1925. Partly because we all have it. If you have a keyboard, you can touch the culture, what will you do with that keyboard? What will you do with that camera? Because we're not victims, we're creators, and I care very much about helping people take responsibility for the change they seek to make. And if it makes you a living, that's fine. If it doesn't make you a living, that's a choice, but don't do it because you're making a living. Making a living because you're doing it. Yeah, well said. Can we go back just a second and maybe delineate or clarify brand marketing versus direct marketing? I think I know what you're saying. To me, if I were to say it, I would say brand marketing or advertising, because to me one is a push, uh, button and the other one is a pull lever.
[8:11]You know, brand marketing being a pull where it's pulling people in, drawing them in with a tent, you know, trying to build attention and trust while advertising is more about getting a return on the investment and getting someone to jump through a hoop. But maybe in your own words, can you? Yeah, I, that's legit, but I do it differently. Because there are direct marketing ads and there are brand ads. It's not the advertising that differentiates them, it's one simple thing. You can't measure brands. You can measure direct, you must measure direct. Lester Wunderman, who was a friend of mine, is a friend of mine, the elder statesman, invented the term direct marketing, was on the board of Yo-Yo Dyne. Direct marketing is measured marketing. If you can measure it, you're going to act differently, because you can see what happened Tuesday and change what you do on Wednesday. Brand marketing is a Cheetos commercial. Brand marketing is the Airbnb logo. They don't, you can't test the Airbnb logo every day. It's the logo, that's part of the way you tell the story of who you are. So, a lot of individuals who don't own the company like brand marketing, because you can't get in trouble for a long time, because no one knows if it's working. And it's this magic um alchemy, the the absolute vodka ads, the back of the New Yorker for all those years. They didn't work, they didn't work, they didn't work, they didn't work, and then one day, you're a genius, right? So, no, very few people make an Apple Super Bowl commercial that changes everything. Generally, what happens is, people show up, put their brand in the world, with or without an ad, right? Brand marketing is, where did you put your store? Is it on the corner or in the middle of the block? You can't measure that because you can't open two stores, one on the corner and one in the middle. Direct marketing though is the secret of Google and Facebook. Google gets all of its revenue, 100%, for people who are buying clicks that they measure. And the reason they make so much money is they sell the clicks for a nickel. And if they work, they tell your competitors that they could buy it for 6 cents. And so an auction takes place. So you're making a little bit of money and Google's making a lot. But you're still okay with it because it's better than making zero. So as we switch to this world of direct marketing, we have to realize, the metrics of brand marketing aren't appropriate and vice versa. What does that mean? It means if you're an individual and you're counting your Facebook likes or your YouTube views, you're making a big mistake. Because you're doing direct marketing in that sense, you're measuring it, but you're measuring the wrong thing. And that's going to undermine your brand, because we all know that the best way to get a lot of clicks is to act like a porn site. And left to its own devices, if it does nothing but optimize, sooner or later direct marketing on the internet races to the bottom, because you're just trying to get a few clicks from a few people, dumb enough to pay you something. And my argument is we need to race to the top, so we need to use direct marketing when we should and brand marketing the rest of the time. Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I you know, when uh back to school timing hits and I hear those ads start pinging, hey, you know, you can get jeans that are usually 40 bucks for 5 bucks, just for this week of time, I'm being hit with direct marketing. And that's ringing my bell. The trouble with direct marketing or advertising like that is, you know, it's can't be expensive and sometimes it misses the mark, and we're being trained to ignore it. Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean, Lillian Vernon, L.L. Bean, the reason you've heard of them, Land's End, is because every time they spent 50 cents on stamps, they made a dollar 50 in profit. So they did it to infinity. And that's the direct marketer's dream. Get it right, turn the dial. But when we think about the marketing that makes our culture better, it might have a little direct marketing piece to it, but mostly, it's a brand marketing exercise. It also kind of reminds me of the Tortoise and the Hare, right? Yeah. Uh, brand marketing is the tortoise's race. The Hare's is direct marketing or advertising. That's right. You know, it can be quick and you can spend $5 million on a Super Bowl ad and reach everyone in one day. Um, you know, but how long do we remember that or how is it resonate, what's the risk? Exactly. Um, can you weigh in on what seems to be the quintessential brand marketing play today, as we talk about it, the Nike play and Colin Kaepernick? Okay, so there are few things that need to be understood about Nike. Biggest one, you are not Nike. I am not Nike. Nike is a bit of a special case. Number two, the vast majority of Nike's future and its present is overseas sales. So they're showing up and they're saying, we're not Puma, we're not Adidas, we are Nike. Well, you don't, you can't say that by pointing to your sneakers, because in a blind taste test, the sneakers are all the same, right, unless you're an elite, elite athlete. It's about something else. Well, Colin Kaepernick is a signal, he's a symbol, he stands for something. And the other sneaker companies have been afraid to stand for what Colin Kaepernick stands for. So, is it risky feeling to go into a divisive area of politics that I don't think should be divisive, but has become divisive? Of course it feels risky. But it was brilliant. It was brilliant because at the level Nike is playing now, the number of ways that they can stand for something, anything is very small. And here with just two words, they were able to say, us, him, we stand for something. When you talk about Nike, you are standing, you're talking about standing for something, right? And the stock market has reflected that, their market share has reflected that. It's not easy for a brand to do something that singular. What's interesting is if Seagram's had done it or Mattress Firm had done it, or some other ad, it wouldn't have worked. Because they didn't have the DNA to match it, it would have been stunt. This wasn't a stunt, the people who knew Nike said, of course, it was very natural for them to do that. Yeah, you're right. They've they've been seeding the market from the beginning, you know, from youth sports all the way on on up and and they've also been, you know, the disrupter if you want to use that buzzy word in their industry, trying to do stuff differently and shake up. Yeah, when you and I were kids, sneakers cost $8, right? So as a citizen, I am thrilled that they've given this brave individual a platform to speak his mind. As a marketer, a brand marketer, I look at that and say, if this is what the people at Nike truly believe, if this is where they're going and it's a non-cynical act on their part, I have to applaud it. Because the kind of person that is decrying this psychographically isn't their core audience. It's not what they look like, how old they are, their income. It's what they believe, and they tend to not be an early adopter of fashion, that person. Well, Nike is selling to the early adopter of fashion. By the time their shoes are at Payless, they're not making any money at that end of the curve. They make money at the front of the curve. And the front of the curve, the early adopters, they're people who are playing with new ideas in the culture. They're not people who are trying to preserve old ideas in the culture. Let's talk about what could, could go wrong or could have gone wrong and maybe if we try this on another brand, you know, what can other brands learn from this particular case study, you know, in the, you know, we stand for this, people like us do stuff like this. So let's talk about the difference between a logo and a brand, right? Because companies spend way too much time on their logo, just like people on YouTube spend way too much time on their hair, I'm told they spend way too much time on their hair. If Nike owned, opened a hotel, I think we would be able to guess pretty accurately what it would be like. If Hyatt came out with sneakers, we'd have no clue, because Hyatt doesn't have a brand. They have a logo. If I swap the signs on a hotel, at that price point, you couldn't tell if you're a Marriott, if you're a Hilton, if you're a Hyatt, the hallway, the room. I don't know, where am I? No brand. So what it means to have a brand is you've made a promise to people. They have expectations, it's a shorthand, what should I expect the next time? And if that is distinct, you've earned something. If it's not distinct, let's admit, you make a commodity and you're trying to charge just a little bit extra for peace of mind. The problem that Hyatt and Hilton and Marriott and the rest have is sort by price. Because if I go online now to find a hotel, it's really simple, sort by price. Why would I pay $200 extra to go a block away? I don't. So what's the value of a brand? The value of a brand is how much extra am I paying above the substitute? And if I'm not paying extra, you don't have a brand. Let's talk a little bit about demographic versus psychographic. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so there only used to be demographics. The only thing a marketer could pay attention to is, what kind of car do you drive? How old are you? What's your income? You could buy all those things from a mailing list company, but once the internet showed up, particularly Google, but mostly Facebook, we could say, this is for people who like that. This is for people who dream of that. This is for people who believe this. Those are psychographics. It doesn't matter what your skin color is, it doesn't matter what your income is, it's what's your narrative inside. So going forward, the old school marketers still talk about demographics. They're wasting their time. What we need to understand is in every zip code, there are people of almost every psychographic perception. And what we have to do as brand marketers is say, it's for you and it's not for you. I didn't separate you because of who your parents were. I separated you because of what you believe and what you dream of. And if you want to switch what you dream and what you believe of, it might be for you. So like I walk by the Supreme store and I say, these people are idiots. Good, because it's not for me, it's for them. Perfect. I like that. I like that a lot. Um, so, you know, search engines and social media websites are collecting data on us, whether we know it or not, whether we like it or not. But if so, if I'm a marketer and I've got and I'm trying to build a brand, then how do I, how do I find out who my audience is, because I think sometimes, uh, we think it's one audience and then Exactly. We might be completely missing the mark. Exactly. Okay, so let's start with the the data collection thing. Every time I go to Amazon, they rearrange the whole store for me. And every time I go to a regular bookstore, I am frustrated, because they don't. It like, what is what are the cat books? I don't like cats. Every time you know I'm coming, just take all the cat books out of the store. They don't do that for me. Amazon does. So, when this is done properly, people are happy it's being done, because it's being done for them, not to them. When it's done improperly, it's when you get a phone call from your credit card company and they say, we noticed you've been going to a lot of singles bars and strip clubs. Here's a coupon for free venereal disease testing. You don't want that phone call, because you didn't ask for that engagement with them, right? So it's not about privacy, it's about being surprised. Okay, so now we go to serve some people. I'll begin by saying, I don't think you have any business being a marketer, unless you have empathy for the people you are seeking to serve. So what do I mean by empathy? I mean, you don't know what I know, you don't want what I want, you don't believe what I believe. Here, I made this, it might be for you. Now, the best way to begin as an amateur marketer is to start with people who believe what you believe and want what you want. Great. Do you know who those people are? Can you imagine them? Start there. You will find some people in that segment, because you made it for you, right? So if you love to surf and to be on social media, then inventing the hero camera, probably a good idea because you knew what it's like to be one of those people. But Sony should have invented the hero camera and they didn't, because it wasn't a professional marketer on the scene who said, I don't surf. I don't want to be on social media, but I could imagine what that would be like. And so we begin with that. We begin by asserting, what a group who believes a thing might want to do. How do you do that? Well, you can learn a lot by noticing. You can learn a lot by saying, why is there a line at the Supreme store? Why are people buying Poké Bowls, right? Why are people doing this? Why are people doing that? And those people who do that, they're also doing this, which has nothing to do with that, but they're all doing it. Is it because they're all doing it or because there's something those things have in common, a feeling? And so what our job is as marketers is to suss out that feeling, make an assertion and then present it to those people. Not spend a lot of time in focus groups, because people don't know what they want, they just know what they dream of. So is your recommendation then, you know, let's say I'm the GM, right? And and I'm looking to to create this product or service. Would you recommend then seeking out someone who has expertise in that area and bringing them on the team as like a consultant full-time higher, or should we all just eat, drink, and breathe that subculture, you know, for the next year and figure it out. Like, uh, you know, when I was building Yo-Yo Dyne, we were hiring a a lot of people. So we took out a full-page ad in the New York Times, which was super fun to do, and 500 people showed up, and we interviewed them in groups. It was really cool. And we sat around a table in groups of eight, and the question I asked the groups of eight is, working together, there was no Google then, no smartphones. Working together, figure out how many gas stations there are in the United States. And what would happen around that table, every time, is two people would say, I'll take notes. Two people would say, uh, whatever anyone else suggested, no, that's wrong, we don't know the answer. Two people would say not much of anything, and then two people would leave this conversation. It was really fascinating, and you can you can guess who I hired. But every once in a while, someone would say, I don't know, I don't have a car. And that was really frustrating to me, because it wasn't a question of how many gas stations have you seen in your life. It was, figure out how to be wrong on the way to being right. How to make this series of assertions about where to go. So, when you think about um, the people who built, I don't know, Dropbox. Dropbox is built to solve a personal need. That's great, as far as it goes. But if you want to be a professional marketer, you got to do it again for somebody else's need. And the way you do that is by gaining the empathy to imagine what it is to be in their shoes. Don't have to be a woman to make pantyhose, you just have to be empathic. Let's shift gears and talk a little bit about mission driven companies, um, I mean, it's been a slow burn since Tom's Shoes and Warby Parker and, you know, these are some of the standout kind of cliche case studies we talk about all the time. Um, but mission driven or purpose driven or maybe what you're saying, work that matters, um, maybe they're one and the same. How do we, how do we get there? And if we're not thinking about this, should we? And if we should, then what how should we reframe or reconfigure what we've already got going? Well, I think you got to tell yourself the truth. And it's so like authors, so many authors have been to see me, I love authors. So what's your goal? I want to make change happen. So do you care about being on the New York Times bestseller list? Well, yeah, I need to, because then it'll help me make change happen. Really? Really? Because I could tell you how to be on the New York Times Best Seller list, but you're going to have to trade this, this, and this for it. And many of them do, because they're not actually keeping track of what got them started. They're using other people's metrics to do their work. And that's as bad as having a boss, it's worse, because now you're in the cycle. So we know how to double your the number of Twitter users. We know how to make sure that there's more this or more that. And you justify by saying, well, I have to make my editor happy, and I have to do this, and I have to do that. No, you don't. What you need to do is get clear about who's it for and what's it for. And if you are clear, like Howard Schultz was clear, he said, I need America to drink better coffee. Well, if that's your mission, then yes, you need 19,000 Starbucks. Yes, you need to serve things throughout the day and the night. Yes, you have to be okay with, you know, stale croissant because you can't figure out how to get the supply chain right. That's all comes with I want all of America to drink better coffee.
[29:49]But on the other hand, there's a guy who's got, you know, four coffee shops in New York City, and he says, I want to make better coffee, period, for people who want it. He works with people he cares about, his cash flow is positive, he does the craft he wants to do, and it's not someone else's agenda, because he's not a public company and doesn't want to be. So, both are available, but be consistent. And the mistake that happens is, someone has four little coffee shops, they say that that's what they want to do, but then they keep compromising, so they can have 18 coffee shops that are now pretty sucky. I don't know why you did that. Well, zooming out then, I mean, it sounds like an I I love this idea of business being so personal. It sounds like to be the quintessential brand marketer, it really has to start right here, it has to start with us. We have to be clear about what we really want. So Phil Knight is saying, you know, we want to be the company, the brand that stands up for people that is on the right side of history, that does the right thing. I'm sure he knows profits and I'm sure he did some math. I'm sure it's not all altruistic, but those are the types of like value-based decisions we're making, right? The quality of life, how much time we want to spend at home versus traveling 100 days out of the year. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, well, whatever job you do, whether you're a brand marketer or an accountant, I hope at some point you've said, what's in here? I don't think we need to be all altruistic, but I think we need to be somturistic, meaning we are true to some people. For some people, they can't believe how great this thing we made is. For some people, they would cross the street to get it. And if I go down the list of modern brands, that is true for all of them. The Procter and Gamble, Unilever brands, not so much, because they own shelf space and they own acres of TV. The TV is getting too expensive. They can probably hold on their shelf space for a while to come, but that's not most of us. Most of us are not saying that they're saying Crystal Light, Crystal Light, Crystal Light, because the fact is, there aren't that many people who are bound up in the story of Crystal Light. But if you wanted to build an important new brand, if you want to grow the brand you've got, you can't use the old technique because we know it doesn't work anymore. And so what can you do to make a bigger impact, which is you can be somturistic, you can be obsessed with some people, and make them so happy to hear from you, that they open your email, that they call you on the phone, that they wait in line to see you at the booth, that they tell their friends and tell their friends and tell their friends. That begins with someone caring enough to have the grit to say, we're going to make good stuff, not lousy stuff. So how is it being back in sort of traditional publishing, you know, back to sort of blocking and tackling, making books like you've done in the past? So of course, I'm a hypocrite. I've repeatedly said, it's my last book. I've repeatedly said the publishing industry is so crippled by the shift that I have to respect the people in it, but politely decline. But here I am back with my friends at Penguin Portfolio. The first reason is, because as the seminar developed, I realized I needed a book. And I know how to publish my own books. But when I thought about the mechanics of that, I realized I needed a team of people who would do it justice. And these were the best people. But I couldn't help myself, so the other thing that we did, which we haven't announced at all, which we're going to talk about after the book comes out, is I actually made 19 extra covers for the book. Okay. And here's a a couple of them. I can't show them to you in too much detail, because it's sort of a secret. But what we're going to do, like my creative director and I, did them all ourselves, all 18 of these covers. So so it's like an alternate cover, like in a magazine, you know, like you have sports illustrated does, you know, several different athletes. Right, same magazine, different cover. So what's going to happen is, if you buy an eight pack of the book, from a an 800 CEO Read, who I'm working with. They're going to put in the eight pack, eight of these covers, you don't know which eight you're going to get. Collect them, trade them, kind of thing, plus like $800 or $1,000 worth of uh free slots, or discounted slots, discounted slots, in the videos from the seminar. So, you get all this juicy stuff for the cost of the eight books. And I got to tell you, after the book was done, you know, because you there's lead times in publishing. So now you're like you have all this energy, but the book's done. So, it was months of work to to make the envelope and the custom covers and the the flip side and the posters and I love that. It was just such joy, because I knew that we're only making 2000 of them. And I knew that only 2000 people are going to touch this. But that made it even better, because it was like, okay, we got to roll up our sleeves and be craftsmen. To to celebrate this other thing we're doing. So, we didn't announce it in advance, because we don't want people to just wait for it, but uh, it's going to come out right after the book launches. That's so cool. You you are the master of creating scarcity. You, you love this idea, right? Yeah, I love it, because it creates value. Yeah, it does, you know, limited time, or there's I'm only making 10 of these, or yeah, it does. Right, so part of it is tension, which is what we know is before anyone says yes, they get like this in any field. You have to, as a marketer, willingly dance with that tension, because you're creating it, right? And then on top of it, scarcity creates value, but the what it does for me as the creator is it lets me off the hook from infinity. And infinity has never been my friend, because if you are making YouTube videos and you get a million visits, you say, well, why didn't I get 2 million? Why didn't I get 4 million? And what I get satisfaction of out of it is saying, sorry, sold out, because now I know I couldn't have gotten any more, because I don't have any more. It makes me emotionally more connected to the work than having to say, this is for everyone and I need 6 billion. Somehow that makes a lot of sense. Um, can I get a little bit personal too and just ask you, you know, I know you always say when I ask you, so what's next, you know, next is what I'm working on right now. This is what I'm most interested in. You know, I've been there and I've done that. That's fine. But like at some point, share a little bit of the Seth dream, what the, like, are you, I mean, we're out here sort of, you know, upstate, you know, up up the tracks. Halfway halfway to Sing Sing prison, yeah. Um, is the goal to like retire in Italy at some point, or like you're going to have this, you know, Seth part two and you're going to be some, uh, gourmet chef, or create a chocolate factory? Like, what are some of the, where are some of the dreams and aspirations that you've got? You know, I I won the dream and aspiration lottery a long time ago. So if I wanted to live in Italy, I could live in Italy and the internet makes it even easier.
[39:41]Uh, I almost started a chocolate company. I was four days away from it. When, uh, I tasted Rogue Chocolate, I met Sean Askinosie. I said I can't make chocolate better than Rogue and I can't be a better person than Sean. So all it would be is a marketing project, and I'm already doing a marketing project. Let these guys sell chocolate. Um, every once in a while I play with the idea of starting a significant entity, a software company or something like that, because I see the niches in the market. But more and more I'll just call somebody up, some CEO of a public company, and say, you you should go do this so I don't have to.
[40:41]Um, I had that conversation today. I hope that works.
[40:53]But the essence of it is this. For someone who's lucky enough to be able to do almost anything he wants, this is what I want to do. I want to be a teacher. I want to be somebody who helps turn on lights and helps people, not everybody, some people, see things that they can't unsee. And it's always in the service of how do I make this a place I'd rather live with my kids than it was yesterday. Because if we could all figure out how to do that that positive cycle, I think that's what makes culture matter. So, yeah, tomorrow morning I will wake up and I've done what I'm supposed to do for my publisher. I'm off the hook. And I haven't written anything new, and I'm not building a new course right now. I've got the courses we run because they work, and I want to run them again. And I've got the team of people in 40 countries who work with me on various projects, and I trust them, and I love them, and I want to do it again. But um, it would be very hard for me to stop doing this right now.
