[0:03]अस्ली और नकली कौन है यहां पे पुणे दुनिया को पता है। दो चार बुरे लोगों की बुराई करने से ब्राह्मण बुरे नहीं हो जाएंगे। These clips come from the accounts of two female influencers in India. They're not discussing food, fitness or fashion. हिन्दू मेरा धर्म और ब्राह्मण मेरी जाती है। ये सुन के जिनकी जल रही है। They're talking about a much more controversial subject, their cast. And they're gaining a following in the process. What they are doing is kind of problematic. And they are justifying it by saying, oh, we are making these videos about pride in our own caste.
[0:40]India's cast system is over 3000 years old. It's one of the world's longest surviving social hierarchies and it gives privileges to upper caste while limiting the rights of the so-called lower caste. In 1948, India's Constitution banned caste-based discrimination and the country has been working to move beyond it ever since. But there's been a rise in young people asserting their caste identities on social media, which some people see as a step backwards. How is the system perceived by younger generations in India? And is social media becoming the latest arena for caste politics? You'll find out in this episode. I'm William Lee Adams and you're listening to What in the world from the BBC World Service.
[1:27]The system divides Hindus into four ranked categories. Many believe these groups originated from Brahma, the Hindu God of creation, so it's central to their belief system. To delve deeper into the caste system, I'm joined by the BBC's Umang Podar. Umang, hi. Hi William. Thanks for joining us. Can you explain for those who might not know, what is the caste system? So, caste system is a system of basically stratifying society and this works on the basis of say which family you're born in, which determines your caste. And once you're born in a particular caste, you can't change your caste and that determines like basically everything you do in life. Like where you would grow up, where you can eat your food, what kind of education level you can have. Basically like a lot of things in your life will get determined based on like which caste you're born in. This is based on the idea that some people are like nobler by birth and therefore they have to do certain professions. And some people are like lesser by birth and therefore they can only be restricted to say some professions like say cleaning or manual scavenging. So, so broadly in India, how the caste system works is like very broadly there would be like four or five categories. The first would be like people Brahmins, the people who would be like priests or scholars. The second would be Kshatriyas, like kings or warriors. Then the third would be Vaishyas, who would be like merchants, and fourth would be the Shudras, who would do like manual labor. And then the fifth would be the category which is outside the caste system, which would do like manual scavenging and all. Earlier they were also referred to as untouchables. But now they are called Dalits and in the Constitution of India they're also called as scheduled caste. also just to like tell you like a very common way of identifying a person's caste is their surname because surnames would generally like tell you what caste a person comes from. And how prevalent is this today? Well, even today it's very prevalent like to just to give a very recent example, recently there was a case before the Supreme Court of India. Where people had challenged prison manuals, basically like how people who've been convicted or who are under trial and they're in prison. And somebody had filed a petition saying that even today there are a lot of caste based practices inside prison. For example, like if you're a higher caste person, then you'd be given say cooking jobs in the prison versus if you're a lower caste person or like allegedly a supposedly lower caste person, then you'd be given a cleaning job. And even intercaste marriages even today, like recently there was a study which had found that only around like 5% of marriages are like intercaste marriages. So marrying in the same caste is still a very prevalent thing in India. How do younger generations view the caste system? Do they respect it as their elders did or are things changing? It's changing a little I'd say, but still like it's very prevalent. So, so for instance, like India has a specific law where you can't discriminate against somebody on the basis of their caste. But like the data suggests that the number of crimes are not going down at all. And and the same and a similar thing which we're talking about earlier in terms of like a lot of people in the younger generations, especially like people who say I would talk to and if they belong to an upper caste. Their first response would be that no, we don't believe in caste, but a lot of times that's also because the reason you've never had to face your caste is because you've been in a privileged position. But still like even younger people from like marginalized communities would get to understand like their caste much earlier. So, in terms of what the younger generation feel, I feel like caste is still prevalent, but it might not be openly talked about or something, but it's still something which is there. Do attitudes toward the caste system vary by where you are, for instance, a city versus a rural area? So it would like vary based on I think the magnitude of it, but even in cities you would find like caste discrimination in like very subtle ways. For example, like in terms of there would be like communities living together and wanting to rent out places to people from their own community. Beyond job quotas, is there anything else that the government's doing to try and tackle discrimination? Constitutionally now untouchability is banned. So like if you're practicing untouchability against somebody else that's a crime. Apart from that there's a specific law to prevent atrocities against marginalized communities. That's also like one of the things which the government is doing. And the third thing also is something which is like providing better access to like temples and all. Because like historically Dalits were not allowed inside temples. So that's a brief overview of the history of caste. Despite efforts to combat discrimination and promote equality, these divisions are spilling over into social media. In rural India, some young women are using Instagram to assert their caste identities. Our reporter in Delhi, Divya Arya has been following this trend closely. She tracked 100 accounts and interviewed a dozen influencers to understand what's driving it. Before we hear from Divya though, I want to let you know that we cover all sorts of topics here on the What in the world podcast. Recent episodes have explained how Matcha tea took over the world and asked, will we discover alien life on Jupiter's moon? We drop a new episode every weekday, Monday to Friday. Just hit subscribe wherever you're listening to us now and our episodes will automatically drop into your feed. Now, let's get back to Divya. These were young women from small town India. What they are doing is kind of problematic. And they are justifying it by saying, oh, we are making these videos about pride in our own caste. So what's wrong in that? But you spend some time, scroll down their feed, watch like a good number of videos and I went across 100 accounts in total. And then you find that this pride is actually also diminishing the other caste. Saying a Dalit person is less or affirmative policies brought in by the government to help Dalits and other people from the so-called lower caste climb up the ladder or access education, employment and other opportunities are actually wrong because they're taking away from those of the upper caste by giving undue advantage to those of the lower caste. So it was moving away from pride into a space which was very uncomfortable. Divya went to visit one 24 year old who shares short videos with her 160,000 followers about her Brahmin caste, which is at the top of the system. She spoke a lot about the values that the family has. She comes from a family of priests and she said that it would be against the values of her family if she made song and dance videos.
[8:10]So this is her way of carrying forward the Brahmin values, which she feels should be propagated more because the upper castes don't come together, the way the lower caste come together demanding their rights. So it is interesting that she acknowledges her privilege of being from the so-called upper caste and at the same time, she is asserting that oh we are threatened by those of the lower castes. So it's an interesting dichotomy that, you know, she lives in and then her videos will, you know, talk about all the things that they have been denied. It's not just Brahmins who are posting these videos. Dalits, from the lowest rung of the caste system, are also joining in. Divya spoke to a 22-year-old beautician who goes by the name Bhimachi Sherni on Instagram.
[9:49]She says that people from the lower caste feel that their expression has been curtailed. So in all her messaging, most of it would be say support for the affirmative policy of the government, which guarantees a certain number of seats in educational institutions for Dalits, or employment guarantees like a certain concession when you access jobs in the government sector.
[10:15]So it would be in support of that, or it would be about the ideal Dalit man, which is a lot of what the other influencer also does, the ideal Brahmin man. So there is a lot of propagation of, you know, what what is the best in our community? And both of them caricature that a lot and both of them propagate marriages or relationships within their castes. So in a way, even though Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar talked about intercaste marriages and relationships as one of the most effective ways of mingling of castes and reducing discrimination. This trend is actually negating that idea. Now, let's hear from two people who shared with us their experiences of growing up in India. Hello, I'm Sachin and I was born in a Brahmin family. I remember in my grandmother's village when I was a child and I used to visit my grandmother and there was a temple where few of the neighbors and us used to go and when somebody from a lower caste wanted to go to the temple, people really objected to it, especially people who were upper caste. They just felt that it's their temple and they decided that the other temple will be for people of lower caste. And I feel that caste is less prominent now in India as it used to be before and I feel that younger generation are really good with understanding what's right and what's wrong and they question the idea of caste and mainly because of education. So it is definitely less prominent now in India, but definitely it's still a thing, especially in rural areas and people of a certain age who still have those beliefs. I feel that equality is very much possible, but I still think it will take a lot of time and effort. It's all created by us. It's nothing written in stone. Definitely as a child growing up, I used to feel very proud of being a Brahmin, but not anymore. I'm Krishna Dhanuja, a founder member of the Global Campaign for Dalit women. Yes, I have experienced caste discrimination and I continue to in many ways. Not all of it was overt and visible, a lot of it was and is hidden, subtle and covert, primarily because of the type of spaces I belong to or I'm part of usually, which is middle class, elite, educated, and often in the diaspora. My sisters, however, who live in rural and urban poor locations in India and South Asia, face far more visible and visceral forms of caste discrimination, such as sexual violence, assault, murder, public humiliation and shaming. Even the simplest things such as high school education, being able to talk in English, using a toilet that has a door, being able to defecate without running the risk of being raped or murdered, are a matter of privilege in India, not an essential right. That I have graduated from college, that too from a foreign university makes me an outlier. Young people in the 20s and 30s are still seeking partners in the same caste and subcaste. We are talking of urban folks, you know, the so-called enlightened ones. Even those who have moved out of India for college and work continue to practice caste. Views are changing but not quickly enough. The kind of widespread all inclusive forms of equality and equity that we truly want is still out of reach.
[14:11]Does the caste system have a place in India's future or are young people turning away from it? I asked Umang. Some things which are changing is for instance like earlier education was something which was restricted for people from marginalized communities. But now they have access to it, although accessing it still might be difficult because of a lot of like structural barriers. So that is one way in which like people, you can ensure that it's not just like upper caste who are in like positions of power. But it's still something which is percolating down very slowly, so to say that when it will change is very difficult. But one can only hope that yeah that changes and like India can be like a casteless society. Umang, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. That's all for today. Thank you for listening to this episode of What in the world from the BBC World Service. I'm William Lee Adams. We'll see you again soon.
