[0:00]Do, do Catholics pray not to say, do they pray to saints? Before I answer, because I need to know, what do you mean by pray? How do you define pray? Prayer. So prayer, I'm in my mind, you it's, you know, in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and then you have a conversation with our Father through uh Jesus Christ. So, that's how you define prayer? Well, it's a, it's a relationship with God, with our Heavenly Father. And that's how you define prayer? I guess so, yeah, that's how I, I would define prayer. Tell me again, what prayer is praying to the Father and what again? How did you say it? Oh, I, I said I would start off my prayer in the name of the Son and of the Father and of the Holy Spirit. So what do you mean in the name of? What does it mean in the name of? To worship. Okay, so you define prayer as worship. See, this is what I want to get that. Where'd you get that prayer only means worship? And even by worship, I'm trying to walk you through this so you can think biblically. Okay. What do you mean by worship? Define worship for me? Uh, that's really hard for me to define, but I guess I would say it's really just giving all the honor and glory to God and saying thanks to God for everything that our Heavenly Father's given us. So, you define worship as giving all honor and glory to God. See, you're using terms, but if I, if I keep pressing you, you're going to see that the way you're defining terms are very limited, and you've narrowed them where you're going to end up committing idolatry according to your own standard. For example, giving all glory to God, right? Yeah. John 17:22. Read that for me. Open up your Bible. You have your Bible, right? Yep. Okay. John 17:22. You guys, hope you're enjoying this, may the Lord bless our numbers because these are some good topics if we can get into them. All right, now, John 17:22. Read that for me. Yep. In the glory which you gave me, I have given them and they may be one just as we are one. Okay, wait. So God gave Christ glory, right? Yeah. And Christ will give glory, that glory to his, his followers, believers in him? Just as we are one, yeah. It says, the glory you gave me, I gave to them. So if all glory become belongs to God, in the sense that you're saying, you only glorify God, well, Jesus said, the glory the Father gave me, I give to the disciples and all who believe in me. So Jesus defying believers and worshipping them? No. Okay. Now go to 2 Thessalonians, chapter 1, verse 12. Focus, brethren, learn to tell you respond to these objections, those who seriously ask. 2 Thessalonians 1, verse 12. That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you in you and him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Wow, so Christ is going to glorify you in union with him as you glorify Christ in union with you? Yeah. So there's a reciprocal glorification. We glorify Christ and Christ glorifies us? Okay, I, I see what you're saying. So, this is why you need to know what you mean by the terms you use. What do you mean by worship? What do you mean by pray? What do you mean by glory? Because if you have a very narrow definition of these terms, this is why you're going to have a problem with Catholics and not just Catholics, poor Catholics get blamed for everything. The ancient churches, as far back as you can go and read the writings of these Christians who represented true Christianity, not the heretics, and today the Orthodox and the Catholics, they all quote unquote pray to the saints. But what does it mean to pray to the saints? So I asked you for your definition. Your definition is too limiting and narrow, it's not even biblical. Because I can pray to you without this implying I'm worshipping you as God. Because prayer means to request and invoke. That's part of the meaning, right? Yeah. So if I ask you to pray for me, that means I just prayed to you, because if I define prayer, invocation, asking, well, hey, Alex, can you pray for me? Well, that means I pray to you, and ask you to pray for me. So if you define it that way, when we ask one another to pray, right? For one another, that means I'm praying to you, because if I define prayer to mean asking, to pray for me. In that sense, there is no sin. Now the only objection you can bring is, well, those in Heaven are dead, which would be a lie, and would be an insult because Christ said they're not dead, they're perfected, they're alive. Well, they're not aware. Yes, they are. See, I went through all this. They are aware. I discussed this on these. They're alive, they're they're aware, they are perfected and the spirit makes known to them what takes place on Earth. So when you follow these principles, this is why all the Christians when they spoke on the issue of what's called intercession of saints, you will not find any Christian saying this is idolatry, this is necromancy, because they knew the Bible better than some people today who think they know the Bible. So, what is your other question? Now, I can give you other references where people are worshipped with God's approval, but it doesn't mean they're being worshipped as God. I'll give you an example. Go to Revelation chapter 3, read verses 7-9. Now, in your translations, they may not translate the term as worship, but if you go with the King James, let me do it for you, let me give you. King James, let me do it for you, if you don't mind because I want to show you, because they understand people will be confused with a specific terminology. So sometimes they will translate the same word that's used in Hebrew and Greek for worship, but they'll translate it differently because they understand that some people may be confused. But I'm going to show you now two passages from the authorized King James version, because the words being translated are the words typically used for worship given to God. So, this is recorded, if you can't follow, go watch, rewatch until it becomes second nature. But I'm going to show you what I mean. So, let's go King James version, you're going to see here. All right. Here the Lord is talking about the church in Philadelphia. Watch here. Revelation 3, 7-9. Revelation 3, verses 7-9. Okay, listen, are you ready?
[6:37]Yep. To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write, these things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth. I know thy works, behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it. For thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Now watch here, verse 9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet. The word is proskuneō. This is the Greek word that's used in the New Testament, as well as in the Greek translation of Old Testament for worship given to God, but it's not always used for worship given to God. Same word. Here it's used in reference to the Jews who persecute Christians, because they hate Jesus. who are not really Jews in the sight of God, whose places of worship belong to Satan. God Christ making them bow and worship at their feet to acknowledge that Christ loves the church. So they can know that I have loved thee. Now, are you going to say that Jesus making the Jews worship Christians as Gods? No. Okay. Now, let me give you another one. First Chronicles 29:20. Now here again, in Hebrew, first Chronicles 29:20. I'm giving you guys the Hebrew so you can go check and see if I'm lying. The word is shâchâh, or shâchâh. This is the word typically used for worshipping God in the Old Testament, not always used for worshipping God, but that's my point. The Greek translates it as proskuneō, proskuneō, which is the word used to worship God. But now watch here, first Chronicles 29:20. Pay attention, brethren. Learn these facts, use them like Catholic biblicist to glorify the Lord and refute these attacks. And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.
[9:10]Now, were they worshipping David the king as God? Because it says they bowed down before Yahweh and the king and worshipped Yahweh and the king? No, not, not him as God. Okay. So, but they still worshiped him nonetheless? Yeah. Okay, now, you get it now, brother? Yeah, so, could you walk me through of an an example of how we can, we can pray together before I get off? Pray together, yes. You can say to me, Sam, can you pray and ask the Lord to do X, Y, and Z? Sure. Now, the question is, can you then ask those in Heaven if they're aware and alive to pray for you? Yes.
[9:49]Okay, and then you answered your question. What's, what do you need me to do beyond that? Saint Paul, pray for me. Saint Michael, pray for me. Holy Mother, pray for me. Right? So there is no problem. The only problem is when people try to define terms in a narrow sense and claim that when you ask someone to pray for you, that's necromancy, contacting dead. That's not what the Bible means by contacting the dead. Contacting the dead in its historical cultural context is what pagans do with, they would go to graves and then channel the spirits of the dead or ask a spirit to come and use them as a medium. This is not what Catholics or Orthodox or the ancient Christians are doing. They're not saying, Mary, come and use my body and speak through me. Or going to the grave and channeling the spirit to come and speak through them. That's what's contacting the dead. But to say, Holy Mother, pray for me. Saint Paul, pray for me. That is not contacting the dead and it doesn't violate scripture because the Bible says they're aware, they're alert, they're perfected and sinless. And in James 5:13-18, where it said, we're told in James 5:13-18, we're told that the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous person does wonders. And it gives the example of Elijah who prayed and it didn't rain for three and a half years and prayed and it rained again. So now if they're perfectly righteous because they don't have sin anymore, how much more powerful are their prayers and influential. See this is what the church saw and that's why the church said, there's no problem.
[12:13]It's only the rise of Protestantism that challenged that. But Protestantism is late to the game, it comes in the 16th century. So that that, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the clarification.
