[0:00]Tell me about Governor Gore Brown. What kind of character was he? Governor Thomas Gore Brown arrives in 1855 to replace George Grey, and his previous appointment was as governor of St Helena, you know, basically a small island in the Atlantic. So this was a considerable step up for him and it's hard not to reach the conclusion that he was out of his depth in New Zealand. Um and also he had very little understanding of Mali, and I think very little empathy for Mali as well. Um and so he was also quite a stubborn figure and I think you can see that with the Watara dispute when he he basically refused to budge even when many others pointed out that um he was wrong to assume that had a right to sell those lands by himself. What about his running mate, McLean? Were they similar? Donald McLean came from quite a modest background in the Scottish Highlands and, you know, the clan system was not dissimilar for Mali. Was fluent in Mari and had I think quite a indepth understanding of Mali society, knew many of the had close relationships with them. But he was also the leading figure in terms of crown purchasing, so he in a way he kind of exploited the knowledge that he had of Mari in order to further the crown's ends. And in in Taki you see that where um McLean is instrumental in advising Gore Brown that has a right to sell those lands. And then he's he's instructed to go back to Taki to complete that purchase but he never does because I think he really knew that that wasn't the right thing to do, that didn't have the right to sell those lands by himself. And so he basically wanted to be anywhere other than the scene of the crime. And he would have known uh the consequences of uh that purchase. He he knew that I think that there was going to be some kind of impending showdown as a result of that because what happened with the Watara purchase was something completely new. Because previously um it wasn't the usual practice to purchase lands from individuals, especially when the rest of the owners disputed that. And so the notion that could sell those lands on his own without the consent of the leading of the community and and the rest of the people of Watara was something new and shocking for Mari. So up until 1860 the Crown and Land Agents had been purchasing from collectives rather than individuals. Yeah, I mean the through the 1850s, you do see um a kind of slippage in in crown practices, especially as there's increasing resistance to selling land. And so McLean does start to resort to more underhand tactics and you see various disputes breaking out as a result of that. Um but was kind of taking this to the next level and it was seen by Mari throughout the country as something that was quite shocking, which was why this was seen um as much bigger than simply a Taki issue. Because for many around the country, they thought if it can happen there it could happen here as well, which is why there was a great deal of sympathy for stance. We know that Watara was uh a thriving community for the Mari. What was New Plymouth like? Well, the the settlement of New Plymouth had been formed in the early 1840s and the settlers had purchased, you know, lands from the New Zealand company unseen and had traveled to the other side of the world expecting this huge expanse of wonderful fertile lands. And they arrived really to find that the the company doesn't actually have title to the lands.
[4:13]Um that those transactions are disputed by Mari who didn't accept the notion that that they had sold this extensive tract of land. Um the New Zealand company deeds were hugely problematic and and really not worth the paper that they were written on. So these settlers are essentially confined to quite a narrow strip of land in and around New Plymouth. And and grow increasingly frustrated at that and so there's this pressure that builds up on the crown to provide further lands for those settlers.
[4:47]And the, you know, and others who were living at at that time are asked repeatedly to sell Watara, but, you know, he he says time and again that Watara is not for sale.
[5:04]They will not part with those lands and so what happens in 1859, 1860 is not something new. It this has been going on for more than a decade. What kind of settlers were arriving in New Plymouth at that time and how were they living? Well, you know, the population of a few thousand people and um some of them um who went on to became to become quite prominent families such as the Atkinsons and the Richmans, um and um, you know, so New Plymouth is it's it's a that's frustrated by the fact that they don't have or they they deem that they don't have enough land um to farm. So there there is this pressure, intense pressure that builds up through the 1850s as a result of that. Just picking up on on something you were you were saying there, uh the pressure for land had become immense. Would they have known or would they have respected the decisions that had come out of Manua Po just a few years earlier to not sell any further land, a collective decision? Well, for many the the is seen as the start of a land league um and it's seen as a threat to this desire to acquire further lands. And the assumption is that people like are are really exercising a kind of veto over the rights of other to do what they want with their lands. And you see this intense pressure through the 1850s building up.
[6:37]In 1854 you have the feud that breaks out where there are a number of casualties as a result of efforts really to exploit any any divisions that the crown can find within Taki Mari.
[6:53]Um so looking for Mari who might be willing to sell lands and and pursuing those opportunities wherever they can and that that creates real tensions and so people like are seen as kind of troublemakers simply because they want to hold on to their lands. They won't part with their lands and that's that's something that that is a source of immense frustration for for many settlers. So around about that time, you know, when uh was dealing in the way that they dealt with uh those who were offering their land up for sale like who was shot dead with five others.
[7:34]It was kind of like the law, the A or the that they were abiding by at that time. Would settlers have become fearful with that kind of activity that behavior and there was a call for martial law at the time. Yeah, so I mean there's this this sense that um people like need to be kind of brought under the thumb of the law because you know, didn't travel halfway around the world to play second fiddle to people that they regarded as inferior to themselves. So there's this kind of lurking um Victorian assumption of racial dominance that's also at play here and how that plays out is in this kind of notion that settlers should be in charge because they are at they are at the apex of their own imagined racial hierarchy. And they come here and they discover they're not because people like are still in charge of their own communities and have a great deal of autonomy. And Kingi of course was a signatory to the treaty of White in 1840, so he, you know, his assumption was that he had been his right to manage his own affairs had been explicitly guaranteed by the crown in that document in 1840. Was it around that time that Imperial troops came in or were they already there? So, I mean, you get a buildup of Imperial troops come into the country from 1840 and that they're in the country through until 1870.
[9:08]The last troops leave, but there is a buildup um and especially in 1859 to 1860 as people can see that war is approaching. To here, the first shots of the war. How would you describe the run up to the here and that land sale with and the and the crown? So March 1859, Governor Brown comes to Taki, he attends a with Mari. um offers to sell land to the crown. Donald McLean is there and advises Brown that has a right to sell those lands and so Brown accepts that offer. The governor later says that um and others hadn't asserted any joint claims to ownership of those lands, which is not true. That they had done that repeatedly and they had had been doing that since the 1840s. But nevertheless um Brown assumes that um has this right to sell the lands. I think McLean knows better, which is why he kind of makes himself scarce after this. Um but for Brown, this becomes a bigger issue than simply the fate of 600 acres of land um at Watara. It becomes really a question of whose will is going to prevail, who's in charge here? So there are these bigger issues around sovereignty and that come into play um in the Watara dispute that Brown sees, you know, had he allowed to to stop this transaction then he would have made him virtual sovereign over that part of Taki. Which kind of ignored the fact that um right to manage his own affairs had been explicitly promised in in 1840. So here happens, what happens there? So February 1860, the British attempt to survey the disputed lands and the owners send out to pull out the survey pegs, which is seen as um a way of signaling opposition to the supposed purchase without without doing that in a in a confrontational way. And the crown's response to that really is quite extraordinary because they call this um an act of rebellion, pulling out survey pegs on the ground and they declare martial law over the Taki province. And, you know, even then and others are kind of pleading with the crown to reconsider the the purchase of those lands and declaring their desire for peace. I mean, was not a man of war. In fact in 1846 when he lived in the Wellington region, he had kind of assisted the crown when um he he'd acted to prevent supporters of traveling to the Wellington region at a time of conflict. So if anything he had been an ally of the crown in the past, but now he's been branded this this troublemaker, this rebel. Um simply for attending to defend the lands of his community. would say that the removing the pigs was a way of saying the land was still in dispute. How do you think the crown reached the opinion that it was rebellious? I I think because by that point Brown had decided that this issue was bigger than simply the fate of those lands. It was about who was going to decide this dispute. And for him it was a matter of the crown having to assert its authority over Mari. But the thing is this was something new and quite shocking for many Mari because previously, you know, the crown had been kind of forced to recognize the of of communities and, you know, his role as the leader of that community really wasn't in dispute.
[12:55]So this is a case where Brown is attempting to deliberately undermine his leadership of that community and to say that the crown is now in charge and and Mari um must obey the rule of law. in in a way that was, you know, quite different from what had happened previously where the fact that um communities still had considerable um ability to manage their own affairs and that had been promised to them in the treaty and so on. Previously the crown had kind of respected that all be it reluctantly, but here um Brown had taken things to the next level really. Almost overnight, the Kingi erects a L-shaped here. Who fired the first shots? So the the first shots in the Taki war are fired by the British and that's really quite important because um following on from that, it was considered that um the Taki cause was a just one and that, you know, others would then come to their assistance and aid them.
[14:06]And the, you know, there are almost immediately there are calls calls for assistance from elsewhere from Wako and so on. And so what happens is the British fire the first shots on the par. The people inside the par perform a Haka and then they return fire. And the first casualty of the war is a Taki um volunteer called Satan who they approached the paw when they hear the gunfire has ended and he attempts to snatch a flag from inside the paw and he's shot and killed. Following the here and the shots, you know, there had been a death. Was it all on there? Were were would the Crown have been rallying their troops for a war that there was no turning back, was there? Well, you know, the um the assumption on the Crown side was that there would be a quick, easy victory. And um what happened at To here is that um after the initial exchange of gunfire on the 17th of March, um at dawn the next morning, the crown forces approach the par and they they find that it's empty. Um and I think all they find is um a flag and a and a horn. Um and so this is this is the source of immense frustration and these assumptions of an easy victory. um a kind of, you know, they don't be a fruit. And it's it's almost like the um the British commanders hadn't learned anything from the northern war. This this kind of because to here was one of these modern par which was, you know, quite sophisticated with anti-artillery bunkers and it was also something that could be, you know, easily evacuated. Um and so, you know, what you get is this this constant crown effort to achieve a decisive victory and and assumptions that that will be straightforward. um compared with the the um the approach of the defenders, which is is to to frustrate that and to um to avoid being caught in open warfare where the superior British numbers and artillery and technology would would come into play. So when Southern Mari started to join at the Hills, how would the Crown have perceived that? Well, I mean, this this was um it was clear that the the conflict was becoming much bigger than simply the fate of those lands at Watara. And, you know, Mari from throughout the country could see the potential threat to themselves. So when um his cause was considered, um many other thought that it was a just one and so there is this kind of rallying of forces.
[16:54]Um and so, you know, Mari from Southern Taki come north to join forces. There's a major confrontation on the 28th of March and the outcome of that has been much disputed. The the British claimed that they had killed as many as 150 Mari, but, you know, other sources indicate that the actual number may have been as few as five people killed there. So, you know, the outcome of that was even today, I think it's far from clear. I mean, there was this, I mean, what happened is that um there was a settler force at Omata Stockade um who were attacked and um crown forces come to their aid, but then they they comply with orders to return to New Plymouth before nightfall. Because one of the things here is that New Plymouth was incredibly vulnerable. A lot of this action is taking place either side of it and within quite a close vicinity, so large numbers of troops needed to were needed to simply to defend that settlement. And so these troops comply with that order that and essentially abandon the settlers. Um but another party um from the HMS Niger turns up and and provides relief and they're kind of seen to be the heroes of the day. Um but as I say, there's a lot, you know, the outcome of that conflict is is really far from clear. And lots of Mari, uh Southern Mari lost their lives, um and were injured. Uh they say they retreated to the south and the HMS Niger continued to fire on them. Yeah, so I mean throughout the throughout the war, you do get the deliberate destruction of Mari villages and so on. And the British do have um, you know, warships, artillery, the latest technology. I mean, Britain is kind of the leading superpower at this time and this is asymmetrical warfare where really um the British have so many advantages in terms of their ability to prosecute war. For one thing, um the Mari who who fought in the war, um had to feed themselves. They didn't have a you know, a huge sort of supply chain dedicated to providing them with food and equipment and ammunition and so on. So decimating their Kai Gardens and their cultivations was an act of war, really. Yeah, and it's it's I mean, really, the um the intention is to make these areas uninhabitable. Um and that happens throughout the conflict. Um there's also um, you know, a lot of the outlying settlers are also um forced to retreat um to take shelter within New Plymouth. And within New Plymouth itself, you know, the the conditions there become pretty appalling too over time. And um over the space of a year, about 120 people die of disease and and illness and so on because of the cramped conditions there. In August 1860, you get an evacuation of women and children, a lot of them go to Nelson. So the way that the war is for so so close to the settlement of New Plymouth is is really quite different from a lot of other conflicts um which take place in in more remote areas. What happens following Kaipo? Does Governor Brown halt hostilities? There's a decision made not to immediately um prosecute the war any further. And part of the thing that everybody is is waiting to see the outcome of is what will do, what will the King do? because their intervention could be crucial. Um and there are kind of um there are varying reports on whether um the people of had um agreed to to fly the King's flag at their at their par um before the dispute over the lands. Because if they did, then the um the pact that the King made to stand together, to defend their lands, to defend their people would come into play. And there are parties from from Wako from um the King country and so on who who traveled to Taki. Um and some people say they're war parties, but there's other evidence that suggests that they're they've gone there explicitly to investigate the dispute and consider the rights and wrongs of that matter. And it's said that they come to the conclusion that um were in the right, that the crown had wrongfully um assumed that they had purchased the lands. And Watara is is returned, but the bitter irony is it's a very temporary um thing because it's later confiscated by the crown under the New Zealand settlements Act. Along with about 1.2 million acres of Taki land because war returns to the area in 1863 and really there there's continuous warfare, repeated invasions through until about 1869.
[22:35]And again with a a sort of epilogue at at Pahaka in 1881 when that community is also invaded and and dispersed. Hapurona agrees to the ceasefire. uh and Governor Grey investigates the land purchase. And can you tell me what he he found again? So Governor Grey concluded that um the crown had wrongfully pursued a purchase of those lands. Teta didn't have a right to sell those lands by himself. Teta and others did have interests in those lands and a lot of people, a lot of have pointed that out in 1860. So this wasn't new information. Governor Grey attempted to betray this as something that was new kind of to justify this back down. But privately he'd been writing for years himself that Watara was a grave injustice. So, you know, this was, you know, this was widely was widely known. But one of the things that that the crucial things that happened is he delayed returning Watara. Um and meanwhile British troops had occupied other lands um at which had been occupied by Mari um kind of as an utu or as an equivalent for for the lands at Watara. So that was seen as a provocative act and that was seen as a resumption of the warfare. And in May 1863, British troops are ambushed at Okura. Um and after that you get a resumption of warfare in the province. And you get as I say, wave after wave of invasion and you see in response to that, you see the faith emerging, which is kind of um offering hope for Mari in desperate circumstances in Taki. You get later occupations and invasions which are conducted in an incredibly ruthless manner. Um operations where, you know, entire are indiscriminately destroyed. It didn't really matter whether they belonged to Mari who had supported the Crown, opposed it, or simply attempted to stay out of trouble all together. And so, you know, this is, you know, relentless warfare really is has been pursued in Taki for for many years afterwards. So by mid-1861 there was a ceasefire, an inquiry into the uh the block, which was the land sale. What did they find and what was yeah the consequences? So in 1863, um Governor Gray announces the result of his investigation is that the purchase that the crown presumed to have completed from Teta was wrongful. It wasn't a valid purchase and the Watara lands are returned to their owners. The bitter irony is that that return of those lands is a very temporary um thing because by January 1865, they've been confiscated by the crown under the New Zealand settlements Act. And this is supposedly um in response to acts of rebellion committed after 1863. And the reason that the that the crown uses this 1863 date is they don't want to look at that confiscation to the Watara purchase, which is seen, you know, widely as as something that was incredibly unjust. Did ever move back onto their lands after it was found to have been confiscated? Well, uh moved to Wako and he he refused to sign peace terms with the crown.
[26:37]Um and, you know, by 1865, the lands are confiscated and um so there's this occupation by by settlers. um and really the community there is is kind of dispersed. Um later many take up residence at Pakar and himself, um spends a number of years at Pakar. And so for Taki, the the consequences are ones that they live with over many generations as a result of confiscation, the loss of their their livelihood, their infrastructure, their crops, their cattle, their horses and so on. Um is is something that has profound consequences for them. What became of the 1.2 million hectares of confiscated land? So many of those lands were subjected to um perpetual leases really at at pepper corn rentals. And that's been a source of an enormous argument to this day as as to the fate of those lands with the decision made that the occupants of those lands should have the right to purchase them out right rather than the entirety of those lands been restored to and that that is a source of ongoing grievance. I see a case in the New Zealand wars quite like the Watara land purchase story. Well, it was was often said years later that Watara was the root of all evil and um Watara is the start of 12 years of ongoing conflict across all of the North Ireland. And, you know, there are strong connections with the first Taki war and not just the later conflicts in Taki, but also those in Wako and elsewhere. So, you know, this is an incredibly important um moment in history. And the that decision to to pursue that purchase that was made in 1859, um it's one that has profound consequences for Mari across the country. That kind of act that happened so soon after the treaty of Whitey does that make it difficult for, you know, two people to live as one in a town like Watara. I think so. I mean, and we can see the the Watara dispute is really about two different understandings of how Mari and Paha should live together on on the one hand, the crown's assumption that under the English translation of the treaty, the Crown has sovereignty over the country. The crown is in charge and by implication are as well and that conforms with their notions that they are superior to money because that's what a lot of Paha that's what they believe firmly believe, but that doesn't accord with the reality on the ground where Mari um are still incredibly powerful and in many ways dominating the economy and in charge of their own affairs. And for like, um that was their expectation that they had been promised in uh um over their lands, over their affairs. And their their wish, their desire was to live in partnership and reciprocity with settlers. Um so it's you know, we you can see the dispute as a playing out of which one of these ideas is going to prevail. Is is it this notion of partnership or of crown primacy. Evaluating the Taki story, the Watara story as a historian and as a New Zealander, what are you left with? Uh a profound sense of tragedy, really. Um I mean, this it didn't need to unfold this way. There were opportunities for um Mari and Paha to live in partnership with one another, but, you know, this is kind of undermined by these settler ideas that that are supposed to be in charge and um they need to show figures like who's the boss. That it's time that Mari are put in their place and those those kinds of um ideas all come to the play in the Taki war. And, you know, the dispute itself, the conflict lasts a year, but its legacy is one that we still live with today.
[31:50]Do you think Taki, Paha living in Taki who have lived here all their lives, possibly farming the confiscated lands of Watara have an understanding of the history here?
[32:29]You know, I think it probably a lot of people have heard of Teta, or they've heard snippets of it, but I I'd imagine a lot of people don't know the full story. They don't know um the background to that in terms of the the Watara dispute or the fact that um the crown had been attempting to acquire those lands for many, many years. The concerted pressure that was placed on the owners um to part with those lands. Um really the the almost fraudulent nature of the New Zealand company transactions that were supposed to have um resulted in in the purchase of of Taki lands. Um and so, I mean, a lot of that history, I think is not widely known because we don't learn about it at school. And um, you know, we should be learning about that history because it is part of our story and we can't, you know, much as we might like to simply acknowledge bits of our history that we like. We we also need to acknowledge these darker episodes as well because they are part of us. They are part of our story, they're part of our history.
[33:47]For Mari here, they say that the wars have never ended. Taki had a very long period of war, longer than many other.
[39:58]Hmm. What are your thoughts about that?
