What is the cause of crime?

[0:00]Welcome back. In the previous segment we were discussing what crime is, what actions should be considered a crime if you there were any principles that we could use to differentiate actions that should be considered a crime from those that should not.

[0:13]I said that we were going to consider the fundamental cause of crime and that's the first question I'd like to ask Congressman Engel.

[0:23]Well, causes of crime I think vary. Uh there are a lot of people who believe that um if you can eliminate poverty, if you can lessen poverty, if you can improve conditions socially, uh that crime will drop accordingly.

[0:42]Uh I would argue that um for instance in the crime bill that I mentioned, uh we had monies in there for prevention for youth activities, uh for um schooling after school programs and things like that.

[0:58]I think that that goes a long way in eradicating or helping to eradicate root causes of crime. Uh however, I I don't want to imply that poverty in itself is an excuse for someone committing a crime.

[1:11]Okay, so it's your view that poverty causes crime, that's the fundamental cause of crime?

[1:16]No, I'm saying that I think poverty in many instances contributes, can contribute to crime.

[1:23]If somebody has grown up in a in a in a situation of poverty and um it it's a hopeless situation that some individuals, given those circumstances, uh will turn to crime.

[1:36]Uh I don't think it's an excuse frankly, because there are many individuals who who are poor, who don't commit crimes.

[1:41]Right, and there are many that are rich that do.

[1:45]Right? Well, I I think there are many that are rich who do. I think there so then there's not possible to establish a correlation between poverty and crime.

[1:53]No, I think that that clearly uh if conditions are are bad or poor for somebody, then chances are that there is a uh a higher possibility that some of those people might be involved in crime.

[2:11]That's why you have so much crime in so many of the poorer neighborhoods. Well, was the United States poorer 50 years ago than today?

[2:17]I don't know. Oh, 100 years ago, the standard of living was lower, people were poorer, were they not?

[2:23]I think the standard of living was lower years ago.

[2:26]Right. So was there more crime 100 years ago or 50 years ago?

[2:29]Well, maybe it gets back to my point about drugs. When I said that I think that crime has increased because of the proliferation of drugs in this country. I think there's a direct correlation with the with the drug problem in this country and with violent crime.

[2:42]Okay, so even though I think 50 years ago, we didn't have a drug problem in this country. I agree. And so I think to a large degree we had less crime. So, but the point is that even though 50 years ago we were poorer, there was less crime, so it's not possible to establish a correlation between uh poverty and crime and claim that poverty is causing crime because when we were poorer, we didn't have more crime.

[3:05]And there's many, many countries, say like Costa Rica, for example, much poorer than the United States, have lower crime rates.

[3:13]That's true. So so that's not the fundamental cause of crime.

[3:18]No, there are also less guns in that country. We have a proliferation of guns in this country, which leads to crime, I believe leads to crime and that's why we need gun control in this country.

[3:27]Well, are there more guns per inhabitant in Switzerland than in the United States and they have lower crime rates?

[3:34]No, I think what I'm saying is there are many guns in this country. We have a larger amount of guns in this country per capita than any other country in the world.

[3:46]And I believe, in Switzerland, they have as many.

[3:50]Well, I I'm not aware of that. I I think I think that this And they have much lower crime rates. I think that this country has a proliferation of guns and guns are one factor that contributes to crime.

[4:01]You know, you can't talk about crime in terms of simplicity.

[4:04]This is what I said when I started. It's a complex problem and there are complex solutions, if there are any solutions.

[4:15]It's not an easy problem and there are no easy solutions. The reasons we have crime in this country are many and there are a lot of things that converge to have to to uh make crime a big problem in this country.

[4:27]It isn't only because there are guns, it isn't only because there are drugs, it isn't only because there's poverty, but there are reasons parts of each of those three and probably 30 others that converge and that's why we have crime in this country.

[4:43]We have violence glorified on the television set. We have violence glorified in the movie theaters.

[4:50]Well, let me ask you a question. Uh can you reduce crime effectively if you do not know the fundamental cause?

[4:55]I think different people would disagree on the fundamental causes of crime.

[5:02]Isn't it is it necessary to know the cause in order to achieve an effect? Say if you want to lose weight, don't you need to know that you have to expend more calories than you consume in order to lose weight?

[5:11]Yeah, but I don't think losing weight and crime is are analogous.

[5:15]I think if you want to achieve an effect, don't you need to know the cause so you can achieve it?

[5:19]No, I I think that is uh you know, what maybe someone would teach in a college course, but it in the real world, I don't think it works that way.

[5:27]You don't think knowledge is effective in achieving your goals?

[5:30]No, I didn't say that. I didn't say knowledge of relationship of cause and effect.

[5:35]That's what we're talking about, knowledge in the sense of knowing what the relationship of cause and effect is. What is it, what is the fundamental cause of crime?

[5:41]I think there are different interpretations and I think that people have different ideas about what's important in combating crime.

[5:51]Okay? I agree, but what we're trying to do is sort out which ideas are true and which are not. That's why I'm examining the reasoning behind these various ideas.

[5:56]Well, I think that my beliefs are true and somebody else will think that their beliefs are true. And in reality, there's probably nothing that's true.

[6:10]It's just different philosophies and different ideas in terms of how do we get at crime.

[6:14]There isn't anything that's true as to what is causing crime? There is no true.

[6:18]Well, I've given you things that I think are true and you have told me that, well, didn't we have poverty 50 years ago and so poverty, in your opinion, cannot be one of the causes of crime.

[6:28]I didn't persuade you that poverty cannot be the cause of crime if we have situations or countries that are very poor that have low crime rates?

[6:36]Let me start again, cuz maybe I'm not getting through. I said that there were a number of things that converge to create crime or to crime that that I believe converge to to to have crime in this country.

[6:51]You may have poverty levels in other countries that are worse than this country, but you may not have guns or you may have punitive laws like in Singapore, okay? Where people will not commit crimes because the laws are very, very tough.

[7:11]There are different societies, there are different beliefs in different societies, there are different values. Isn't that a fundamental there in different societies. aren't aren't a person's conclusions about how he should deal with other people the fundamental difference between a criminal and a person who isn't?

[7:23]I I think that you see what what you are trying to to do is is you're trying to say that there are um set patterns that everything neatly falls into a box.

[7:33]And I'm trying to explain that I think that different people have different philosophies about why crime is caused and how to eradicate it.

[7:44]And my beliefs may be different from your beliefs, okay? I believe for instance, the government ought to do prevention programs whereas other people will ridicule midnight basketball and say that if you're paying kids to play basketball or you you have these programs to play basketball at night, that is not a way to prevent crime.

[8:04]The way to prevent crime is to take that money and build more prisons. Okay, I would say that the way to to deal with it is to have a mix of prevention, so you have these youth programs to keep kids off the streets and give them something to do.

[8:20]You use the money to create jobs or create schools, learning, so these kids can get skills, so they can be productive citizens. If they're productive citizens and they have an income, that will certainly keep them away from crime.

[8:32]I think that's important cause some of my some of my colleagues think that that shouldn't be done at all. You just can I ask you a question, toughen the laws, you build the prisons, you make things tough. That's their philosophy. That's not my philosophy.

[8:42]I I I agree that different different people have different ideas, but what we're trying to do is sort out which are true and we're trying to examine whether there's a correlation of cause and effect between poverty and crime, and that's what we discussed first, or between having guns and crime.

[9:00]That was the second. Are there any other things that you think are the cause of crime to see if we can actually establish a relationship of cause and effect?

[9:08]I suggested that it is mistaken conclusions about life, a person's values that is the root cause. In other words, if a person is committed to reasoning, producing and trading as a way of achieving his ends, he won't try to rob or con people, but if he thinks that that is an effective way to achieve his ends, then he will.

[9:25]So I would say really that it is a person's fundamental conclusions that is the root cause and it explains, for example, the other collateral cause that you mentioned, which was drugs, because if you have bad conclusions about how to live, you think that you can achieve your life by having drugs and that's just a mistake.

[9:52]So really, drug taking is just a an effect from bad conclusions about life, in other words, mistaken values.