[0:00]Hey guys, I'm Iqra, and this is What's in the World from the BBC World Service. Today we're talking talk, that white powder is sometimes found in makeup. There's been a lot of chat recently about how safe it is, so in this episode, we're going to chat all about that. We're going to figure out why it's in so many of our makeup and cosmetic products and whether we should be avoiding it too.
[0:26]Okay, so let's get into it. I'm with BBC journalist Phoebe Keane, who produced a podcast series called Talc Tales. She's done a lot of research in this area. Hey Phoebe. Hello. So Phoebe, before we sat down, I was having a look for Talc in some of my makeup products, in my blush, it's in my powder. I was quite surprised about that. What is Talc? Yeah, so Talc is actually a mineral, so that means it's naturally formed in the earth. So it's like to me and you, it would just look like chalky rock. So, yeah, it's a rock and you mine for it. And why is it in so many of our makeup products? Yes, it's useful because it absorbs moisture. So that's why it was originally in Talcum powder, so you know, that's what people put on after a shower, nappy changes. So it absorbs moisture, but it also with kind of face powders and eyeshadows, it helps products glide on smoothly and stops it caking. So that's why it's used in face products, too. And then there's been a lot of chat around the dangers of Talc. Uh so, we'll get into some of that. I've seen a lot of videos online of people, I guess, throwing away their makeup because they have Talc in them. So, the main concern is that there's a risk of contamination with asbestos. So, asbestos is the commercial name for something that's actually made of six minerals. So, these minerals are naturally formed in the ground just like Talc.
[1:56]And so, Talc and the asbestos minerals are formed under the same conditions, and they're made of the same chemical elements. So, they're very, very, very similar and often found together in the ground. So, if you're mining for Talc, there could be asbestos in the mine, too. And so, when asbestos contaminates Talc, what's wrong with that? What does it do? Yeah, so asbestos used to be seen as a wonder material. It's fire resistant, it's used in insulation, it was used in buildings all around the world. But in the 1990s, the evidence mounted that it causes cancer. So, there's lots and lots of evidence that it causes lung cancer, mesothelioma and other chronic diseases. And now that's because asbestos is formed of tiny, microscopic fibers, and they look like needles. So, they're long and thin and pointy, and they're microscopic, and so we can breathe them in. And then when we breathe them in, they can get right down deep into the lungs and the linings of our body. And as they're fire resistant, our body really struggles to get rid of them. So they can stay there and cause a genetic mutations that eventually lead to cancer. So, asbestos was banned in the 90s in the UK and then since then 50 other countries around the world have banned it. It's not banned everywhere, you know, some countries still mine for asbestos, I think Pakistan still mines for asbestos, so it's legal to use asbestos there. But broadly speaking, it's banned and it's seen as a category one carcinogen by the World Health Organization. And so, can we test for asbestos in Talc then? Yeah, so there are different methods of testing the Talc for asbestos. The global industry standard, though, is something called x-ray diffraction. And the experts that I spoke to said that isn't the most sensitive method. And the experts I spoke to said that using that method, thousands of asbestos fibers could still be in the Talc and slip through undetected. So, it's useful for industry because they're using lots and lots of Talc because it's it's quick, but it's not the most sensitive method. So, there might still be asbestos fibers in the Talc using that method. There are more sensitive testing methods, so there's transmission electron microscopy. So, I had some products tested using that method. And it takes a while, it does take a long time, so they, you know, they have to put the powder in a solution, do lots of, you know, complicated things. And then the amount that they look under the microscope, it's the size of a sequin. So the microscope side is the size of a sequin, it's tiny. Looking under the microscope using that method, you can then see the asbestos fibers. So, you know, when I had some products tested, I had eight products tested that I use regularly, bought new versions, obviously. Out of eight of the products, two of the products, they found an asbestos fiber in. So, it's really interesting looking in the lab at Brunel University, you know, you can see this microscope slide, and they're all these particles, and then there's just this needle. And it's just quite, you know, it's just quite obvious, it's an asbestos fiber, it's quite sharp looking. But that's the most sensitive method, and it took time. If you're a big company and using lots of Talc, it would be time-consuming to use that method.
[5:25]And another issue that was raised by lots of the experts is that the they don't specify how much Talc you should test and how regularly. So, you could just test one batch of Talc at the start of the year using that method, and then you wouldn't need to test the rest of the Talc that you process for the rest of the year. And you could technically say that you're adhering to the industry standard. Okay, so Talc on its own is fine, but sometimes it can be found alongside asbestos, and it can be hard to separate the two and to test for asbestos in Talc products. And for people listening, you might have heard of some of the legal cases in this area, in particular, against Johnson and Johnson, the pharmaceutical company. So, this issue has been highlighted by a case that happened in 2018 in which a jury found Johnson and Johnson's Talcum powder contained asbestos and that the company had failed to warn users of the risk of harm posed by the asbestos. "This failure caused or directly contributed to the death or the cancers affecting 22 women". The company was ordered to pay $2 billion US dollars in damages, and there have been many other cases, uh, though some juries have found the opposite of this, that there was no asbestos in their products. So, Johnson and Johnson stopped using Talc in its baby powder back in 2023. They say the product was safe and say the sales were declining due to "misinformation around the safety of the product, and a constant barrage of litigation advertising". Moving on to the actual health risks. What are the health risks of using Talc based cosmetic products? In July 2024, the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer. They looked at all of the studies that have been done, and they classified Talc as probably carcinogenic to humans, so probably cancer-causing. But it said a confounding factor that couldn't be ruled out was asbestos. They said asbestos has been reported to be present in some Talc products as a contaminant. And industry standards used to assess Talc based cosmetics have often been insufficiently sensitive to rule out asbestos contamination. On that really specific question, if you use a blusher that has Talc in it, you know, should you be worried? So I turned to Dr. Astero Klampatzer at the Institute for Cancer Research in London. So I asked her if we know how many asbestos fibers it takes to cause cancer. And she said, no, we don't know how many fibers it takes to cause cancer, and she said that's quite a hard thing to know. But she does say that cases of cancer have occurred after a really brief exposure to asbestos or exposure to a really low level of asbestos. And so she says the only real way to say that we're in a safe level is to say there is no asbestos at all. The World Health Organization also says there is no known safe level of exposure to asbestos. She said that, you know, using a beauty product that might contain one or a few fibers of asbestos poses minimal risk, but there is a risk. If you use that product over time continuously, then the risk increases because it's additive. So every time you use it, the risk goes up. But even with multiple uses, overall, the risk is low. But then she said, you know, saying all that, she would advise against any unnecessary exposure to asbestos, and she personally would use a Talc-free product.
[10:04]It's worth saying not everyone agrees with the health risks of using Talc. As we've said, it's difficult to test. Um, several companies including Johnson and Johnson, Chanel, and L'Oréal have been quietly moving away from using Talc-based products in recent years. But do consumers care about this? We reached out to Savannah, who is a PhD student. Let's have a listen to her take.
[10:29]The reasons I continue to use Talc and I'm not afraid of it are I'm selfish. It works for me, it looks really good whenever I use it. I really like Talc and I do think there is a way to use it responsibly. So, I think going forward, if we want to keep products with Talc on the market on the market, um, rules are going to have to be put in place so that companies are ensuring that their Talc is asbestos-free. We also reached out to Jen Novakovich. She is a cosmetic scientist. She's one of the people who doesn't think that using Talc is risky and doesn't think people need to worry. She did give us some alternatives that people could use instead. Common alternatives include different starches like corn or tapioca. While these won't have quite the performance of Talc and will almost certainly translate to a more expensive final product. If you're someone looking for alternatives, there are options. Thank you so much for running us through that, Bibi. You're welcome. Okay, thank you so much for joining us today. Make sure you comment below, like and subscribe anytime. Always waiting for your comments, always keen to read them. And speaking of them, before we go, I wanted to shout out some of the comments you've been leaving on our YouTube video all about looksmaking. And this one says, for me, looksmaking is taking daily or more showers, brushing my teeth often, using a nice perfume or cologne, being nice to others, and living a happy life. So, thank you for that one. And I can see there is a lot of chat about how women have faced similar pressures, um, with their looks, too. So, as always, your comments are always appreciated. Make sure you reach out to us on Instagram too, at BBC What in the World over there. But for now, I'm Iqra, this is What in the World from the BBC World Service. I'll see you guys next time. Bye.
