[0:00]They have what's called the murder routine, where they ask you these questions like if you've done these really horrible things to make you say, "No, I didn't do that, I just did this." So it's like this, they have all these like mental tricks. And so I remember in my first interrogation, she was like, "Did you rob a bank?" And I was like, or and she was like, "Did you have sex with your father?" And I was only 12. Like this was just like, so it was like so traumatizing.
[0:40]When you were younger, what was the first time that you became, I suppose, aware that you were a member of the Church of Scientology? I mean, I always knew I was in the Church of Scientology. I knew of Scientology before I knew of anything else. So it was almost like, when did I realize there was like an outside world, kind of. So when I was six, I went to this boarding school for kids who whose parents worked at Scientology's International Management Base. And we would see them once a week, um, for a couple hours on Sunday morning. And so sometimes during that time, I would go to a restaurant with my dad, and that was the first time I kind of realized that we were different. Like, because we would be told what to say to people. I'm a student and I, I go to private school, but I didn't really know what those things meant or why I had to say them at the time. And so, going out to like breakfast with my dad was probably the first time I realized that there, there was something different with us and the rest of the world. And for anybody that doesn't know much about Scientology or its beliefs, what is Scientology? Scientology is, it's, a belief system, but it starts out as more of like a self-help practice. Like it almost seems normal when you first start. They're like, "Oh, you have trouble with communication, we'll help you with that. Oh, you have troubles in relationships, we'll help you with that." Um, but they have a curriculum where it's like you start at the bottom and you do step-by-step, you move up to the top. And the higher you go, the more money you pay, so the more invested you are. And, um, by the time you get to a certain level, all of your friends and family might be in Scientology, and if you leave, you can't talk to them. They don't have a God, but they believe that each of us are spiritual beings who live lifetime after lifetime, and we pick up a new body each life. And they basically believe that because of bad things that we've done and bad things that have been done to us, we're sort of stuck in these bodies, but our spirits, which they call Thetans, are really all powerful. We have all sorts of powers, we can create universes at will, but because of all of these things that we've done or have been done to us, we are now powerless and mired down and only Scientology can, um, basically cure us of that and bring us back to our native state. So it starts off sounding normal, but it's, yeah, it's too late by the time you realize that it's kind of weird. So my parents were brought into Scientology by their own parents when they were teenagers. So your parents were part of the Sea Org? Yes. The Sea Org is Scientology's most dedicated group, where people sign 1 billion-year contracts, um, basically dedicating their soul, lifetime after lifetime to Scientology because they believe you come back again. Basically they work like 140 hour weeks, they have military-style uniforms. They live communally, they eat communally. Yeah, so it's like a very insulated world, and they basically are the management for Scientology. I guess people respect Sea Org members because they're dedicating their whole life and essentially their eternity to helping people.
[4:27]And what explanation did your parents give you for kind of not being around day to day? Well, they never, I mean, the explanation was that they were working and they were doing the most important job in the planet, which was like saving people. But it wasn't like they had been around and then they stopped being around. So there's very little explanation needed, too, because them not being there was completely normal to me. But I think like biologically, I didn't like it, but I mean, I was essentially trained from a really young age to just shove all feelings like that down. And or just like suck it up and just deal with it. But I mean, I remember there was one time that like one of the teachers at the school, like she punched me in the face. And I remember I told my mom and I was like, I was debating if I should tell her or not, and I finally just did, and then she was like, "Oh, well, what did you do?" Because in Scientology they believe that if something bad happens to you, it's because you did something bad that made it happen. And so, you know, she was like, "Oh, well, what did you do to deserve that?" Do you remember how you felt when she said that? I felt like, like it was completely normal. But I guess there was like a little bit of lingering hope that maybe it would be like, I don't know, like, my mom would do something or say something, but it was just like, that's that's was to be expected. When did you realize that your family and your name was quite an important name in the Scientology Church? I remember when I was at the ranch and another kid, who was my friend came up to me and he was like, "Do you know that your uncle is COB?" Which is means Chairman of the Board. And I was like, "What's that?" And he was like, he was like, "It's like the boss of all of Scientology." I was like, I was like, "Are you sure?" I was like, "How do you know?" He was like, "I know, it's true." With me, he was just like Uncle Dave. So up until that time, and even for many years after that time it was like that, but I knew that he was important. I could see how people were afraid around him, how people treated him differently. And what was he like as a person? Well, obviously he was like very different to different people, but like when I was a kid, he was really sweet to me and he was playful, and he would send me gifts for my birthday and for Christmas. And, um, I was close with his wife, my aunt Shelley, and like only once was he angry at me directly. But obviously I knew things that happened. Like when he would meet people or they would mess up, you know, they would get sent to the RPF, which is like sort of like their in the Sea Org, it's like the highest punishment you can get where you have to wear all black. You can't speak unless spoken to, you have to run everywhere you go and then you have to spend five hours a day, um, getting intensive interrogation. And then the rest of the time you do heavy manual labor. So, you know, people after speaking to him and doing something like not bad at all, they would just get assigned to the RPF. You know, or I would hear him yelling at people from down the hallway, or, you know, I would know that people were in trouble with him. So I knew that he was scary a little bit, but he didn't act that way towards me. And how much power does the leader of Scientology have? Total power. Tell me about the first time you became aware of the billion-year contracts. When I was seven years old, there were some adults who came from the International Management Base. And we were all asked to stand in a line and it would lead to this table. And these adults were like decked out in their military-style uniforms. You know, they had like bars and campaign bars and lanyards and a hat. And, um, they were basically asking each of us to sign the 1 billion-year contract. I remember them explaining it briefly and I was like, "Okay." I was like, "Sounds good," because I was just like that's what my parents had done.
[8:55]So it was like a big moment. I mean, it's crazy thinking back to it now, but at the time, I was like, "Cool." It was just normal for me. There was never any other option if I wanted to be with my family, which is really just my biological urge at that time. Like that's all I want or care about. Then I have to sign this, otherwise that's not going to happen. So it was like, yeah, obvious. Was there anybody in that line that was saying no? Like, would there have been an option if you'd have said no? I don't remember that at the time, but I do remember some cadets, because we were cadets, we were Sea Org members in training. Some cadets who were like sort of considered the bad ones, they would say, "Well, I don't want to be in the Sea Org." It was only like one or two. And I remember being like, "Oh my God." I was like, "What?" I was like, "That's horrible. Why would they say that?" And they were sort of like isolated and they would be in trouble, and they would have to do like extra heavy labor and even sometimes we would be forbidden to talk to them. And then they always wound up being like, "Okay, I'm going to stay." And then they would do amends. So it was almost like, even if I ever thought I didn't want to stay there, which I didn't really think until I was older, but I was like, "Oh, I'd be an idiot to say it." Because all that happens is you get in trouble and then you come back. There's nowhere to go, you know, unless you have family on the outside, which I guess some people do, but I, I didn't. And what kind of education did you receive when you were at the ranch? When I first got to the ranch, there wasn't any schooling. We had what were called check sheets, which was just like a list that was like, read this. And then it was like, we had to do like 30 plus hours a week of manual labor and we were told that basically because we had a place to sleep and food to eat, um, that we had to exchange. We had to give as much, if not more, than we were being given. And, um, only criminals get things for free.
[11:10]We weren't allowed to have what's called like human emotion and reaction. They called it HENR for short, or they had many terms that that essentially meant human emotion and reaction. Like, you can't have case on post, which means like doing your job, you can't you can't be in your emotions. And so it was always like, okay, if you were, um, being whiny or dramatic or even getting angry. It was like that's not okay. You're going to get in trouble for it and it's just not worth it. And they would also put us on the E-meter like do a E-meter check in the classroom where they would ask if we went past any words we didn't understand. What is an E-meter and how does the Church of Scientology use them? So an E-meter is short for electrosychometer, and basically it's like this device which has like a needle on it, which moves. And then it's attached through a like a cord to two cans that you hold and basically it puts a tiny current of electricity through one side, goes through here and then back into the E-meter. And then the needle registers what's going on. Um, basically they believe that it also that the that this current can basically be influenced by what's going on in your mind. It influences this current. And so if you ask a question, um, like have you done anything bad, if the needle reacts instantly, then it means yes, you've done something bad. So it's sort of like a lie detector. It's like they ask questions and they see if you're telling the truth on the E-meter. And they use it for interrogations, but they also use it for other like Scientology counseling things. And what kind of questions would you be asked in an interrogation? I mean, they would ask anything from like, you know, have you stolen anything? Were you unproductive? Um, did you flirt with anybody? Did you have sex before you were married? Um, like I remember the first interrogation that I got, I didn't really know the procedure. And so they just started out asking me if I had done anything bad. And I was like, "Nope." I was just like, why would I say yes? And then they do this thing where if you say no, they have what's called the murder routine, where they ask you these questions like if you've done these really horrible things to make you say, "No, I didn't do that. I just did this." So it's like this, they have all these like mental tricks. And so I remember in my first interrogation, she was like, "Did you rob a bank?" And I was like, or and she was like, "Did you have sex with your father?" And I was only 12. Like this was just like, so it was like so traumatizing. And that was just like my first introduction to them. And then after that that type of thing just became normal. How many times were you interrogated whilst you're in the Church of Scientology? I mean, like at least 25 times. But interrogations last a long time, like it's not a one-day thing, it's something that takes like months or minimally weeks to get through. Because they ask you a question, like they'll say, "Did you do something bad?" And if it doesn't read but your needle doesn't float, they'll be like, "On the question, have you done something bad, has anything been suppressed?" On the question, have you done anything bad, has anything been invalidated? And they have like this whole list of things that they keep checking until your needle floats on that question. And then at the end of every session, they ask you a series of questions that are like, "Have you deliberately tried to influence the E-meter? Was there another question I should have asked you that I didn't ask?" And you have to have your needle float on all those questions. So it's very intensive. It's not just like a one-day thing. It goes on for weeks, and sometimes like a single, in a single day, I would be in the room for like nine hours. And they had a video camera there, and even sometimes they had like a headset on where someone will be telling them what to do or what to ask while I was in the interrogation. Why do they do that? They believe that people leave and speak badly about Scientology because they have done bad things to Scientology. And in order to feel better about themselves, they now need to belittle Scientology by saying bad things. And so basically, they do it for their own safety and protection. It's like if you have more things to hide, then they consider that you'll do more bad things towards Scientology. And then I also think they do it to keep you in line. It's like you don't want that to happen to you, so you'll be as good as possible. What was the impact on you as a child growing up in that environment? It sort of created an environment where you knew that nobody ever had your back. Like you had to figure it out for yourself. And even asking for help is like, um, like it was pointless.
[16:26]Like, it was just asking for more trouble or, um, like you always, so in Scientology they have like, where if somebody's doing something bad or not working fast enough or hard enough, you have to write reports on each other. They have what's called knowledge reports. And you know that if you go to anybody, they're just going to report you. So it's almost like, you have friends, but you have no real friends. You have parents, but they're not really your parents. And so it's just sort of like distrusting environment. And you're sort of being required to be an adult, even though you're a little kid. And you kind of know that nobody's going to like protect you if anything bad happens. When I was 12, I had joined the Sea Org in Clearwater, Florida, so I was moved away from my parents, um, in California and then 3,000 miles away across the country, I was brought to Clearwater. I remember arriving at the airport and there was no one there to pick me up. And up until this point, like I was never around people who are not Scientologists. So all of a sudden I was at the airport by myself. Nobody was there to pick me up and it was scary, and then I was just put into a room with a bunch of other girls. The plan was sort of unclear, but I was put into a Sea Org uniform, which was just like blue. It had epaulets, it had like a little tie, and, um, I was just told I was in the Sea Org and that I was in training to go back to the International Base. So basically I spent my entire day studying Scientology and as far as how it differed from the ranch, to be honest, in some ways it was easier because we did not have to do heavy manual labor. Right at the ranch we did. So that was harder as like a young kid. Um, so in Clearwater it was more just studying all day. And whilst you were at Clearwater, how often did you see your family? So while I was in Clearwater, I saw my dad twice. In fact, like I was forbidden to call him directly from my aunt Shelley who was my uncle David Miscavige's assistant. She said I wasn't allowed to call my dad and so I would even like try to call my parents and I would be like held down by security and several other women. And there was no way for me to be in contact with them that wouldn't go through Scientology. Like I could write them a letter, but all of those letters are checked and they, like they go through Scientology's mail pack. And so there, they're just read both ways. So it's not like I could really ask for help or or even that I expected that I could. There is a lot of speculation about what happened to Shelly Miscavige. She's not been seen for over 15 years since roughly like 2005. What do you think has happened to Shelly Miscavige? I believe that she was like demoted. Um, she probably got in trouble for something she did, and she probably had to receive interrogations, but I believe that she was demoted to a lower position, um, where she works somewhere where it's not some it's not a place where Scientology public are coming in and out. It's like a management part of Scientology. And that's just where she works now. She's really no more or less missing than anybody else who's in Scientology and who can't really have contact with outsiders and is just working at on a billion-year contract and working, you know, 150 hour weeks and just slaving away. And as you grew up, when did you start to feel like you were having doubts? So, one of the most difficult aspects of being in Scientology at that age was that if you were in a certain group that was like higher level, than other groups, you weren't allowed to fraternize with the lower-level groups. And so even if the people in those lower level groups were your friends, who you've known your whole life, who you were brought up with as a kid, you would just get in trouble for talking to them or being nice to them. You were only supposed to be friendly with the people in your group. And we did not have schooling, um, we had long hours, but all those things were normal to me at that point.
[21:20]Or not being spending time with my parents. But the situation with just sort of like being ripped away from your friends and being forbidden to talk to certain people, or even being forbidden to like, like boys or flirt or anything like that. It just like sucked all humanity out of out of it. And even at the time, like for me, who was used to a lot, it was just like too much for me. People were having like, just certain freedoms taking away. Like things that were not even in Scientology's best interest to take away. Things like making it so they couldn't listen to music, or they couldn't have a snack in their drawer. And it was like little things like that. As stupid as that sounds, it's like, I guess I could excuse in my mind them not letting people have time off or, um, maybe separating people from their spouses for security reasons. Maybe I could explain that, but when they took took away these little things, like not being able to have food in your drawer or music, I was like, there is literally no excuse for that in the entire world. And it made me see how it was just control. They're doing things because they could, just to control people. I also tried to like continue to trick myself and I couldn't anymore. At one point when they were trying to separate me from at the time it was my fiance because we had sex before we were married, which was forbidden. I was just like at my lowest and I literally like hung myself outside of the window on the fifth floor of a building on Hollywood Boulevard and I was like, if you don't tell me where my fiance is, then I'll let go. Now, I don't know that I would actually have done it, but I felt like it was my only option. Like, I felt like I was so unhappy. It was I had no control over my life or my future, that they could just take everything away and they would continually. They wouldn't leave me alone. I mean it was extra interrogation, extra bad treatment because of my family. Like I couldn't stand it. I couldn't keep my mouth shut and I had to get out of there. And then how did you come to leave? The truth is that I think that what finally caused me to leave was being physically mature enough. Like I was 21, and you know, when you're a kid, you just like believe adults and you listen and you try not to get in trouble. And I think that just at that point, I was like, no, I see what I see and it's what I think it is. And so I was just like, I can't be here anymore. I can't take it. Like it was just too abusive. And what was the process like for you to leave, Jenna? So, when you leave the Sea Org, you have to get an interrogation, which usually involves months of heavy labor as well. But so they said, "Okay, you can leave. You have to get your interrogation." But by this point, I was so tired of being kept in a room.
[24:47]I had tried to escape the room many times. They chased me down the street after trying to hold me in the room for hours. And, um, I just like couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't put myself through the mental process. But my husband at the time, he said that he wanted to leave with me. And so he was sort of slowly like withdrawing or being shady or not coming home and sort of changing his tune, um, saying, "Well, I might not go with you." Even though it was like kind of his idea to want to leave too.
[26:22]And when I wouldn't do my interrogation, they sort of basically started talking to him and convincing him that he couldn't leave and otherwise he would never get to speak to his parents or his family again, who were Scientologists. And that he had to deal with me and make me get my interrogation or else he would never be able to see his family again. And he was crying and he was like, "Okay, we'll leave together." And then we wound up leaving together that night. How old were you when you left the Church, Jenna? Just before I turned 22. And how did it feel to be free from Scientology? On one level it's amazing. But part of what people don't talk about is that when you leave, it is hard. I didn't know how to drive, I didn't know how to cook. I felt like I'd never gone grocery shopping. I felt like just being normal or just even picking out my clothes every day was it was like hard, but it wasn't as hard as being in Scientology. It was better. But it also meant losing everybody who I ever knew. And it was also hard because Scientology was having us followed. They were by private investigators. Um, they were talking to my in-laws, putting pressure on them to make us go back to Scientology and do some of their procedures.
[27:45]A lot of pressure, to the point where they wouldn't leave us alone. So it's like you're sort of trading all of this for your freedom, which is scary and amazing. So then we had kids a couple years later, and that's amazing. I mean, my kids are amazing and we, I, I feel like we sort of made it our goal to make up for lost time by like traveling and, um, even with our kids and so that has been really amazing to see the world and so many different cultures. And just learn how different people live. Um, because, you know, we didn't really experience that in Scientology. And and how actually how nice people are for the most part. In your opinion, of your life experience, do you think Scientology is a cult, and why? Hm. I mean, I am proud to be somebody who started exposing Scientology. You know, early on when it was still really hard and scary to do so. Like, it was really scary, and, you know, you would hear that they would sue people into oblivion. I mean, they would try to separate us from our families.
[29:55]So I am proud that I that I expose them and that I told the truth about them even when it wasn't easy, even when it was hard. It's hard for me to look back and see myself as a kid, but when I pictured my kid going through what I went through, that's the only time I can be objective and I'm like, that's fucked up, like that is messed up and Scientology's evil and people need to know about this. That's what sort of motivates me.
