[0:00]Are you just doing this as like therapy basically? It's just talking for me, yeah. It's a good thing for women to have independence, to not need you. This need to be needed is so sad. I don't need my boyfriend. He doesn't need me. We just want each other. Do you think women are missing out on some of the beautiful qualities that men possess because men are 100%. Because men have to hide it. Isn't it a great thing that women are out earning half the keep for the house? We've now come to a point of thinking that boys are not born with love and empathy, whereas I know that boys are born loving and empathetic. I don't think I have ever agreed more with something someone said. I think it's really dangerous if we start to dehumanize men much in the way that many men have dehumanized women and we start to think they're born that way. I think we've tried calling men out didn't really work. I'm calling men up. I believe in men. Thanks to M&M's for sponsoring this episode of Man Made. Easter is more fun together.
[1:06]Uh thanks for coming on man-made. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Nice to see you. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm all the better for seeing you. Listen, we always start the pod with like big questions. We're going straight in. And I feel like you're going to enjoy this because um what I know about you and from the times I've met you, you're quite opinionated and that's the sort of person That's true. I'm a fence sitter. Are you really? You got splinters, yeah. Yeah yeah, of course, you do. Media loves me. Well, what do you think the biggest thing um women are getting wrong about men in 2025? Okay, I don't want to speak for all women because I think we are a diaspora, but what I will say is that lately when I've been talking about men in public, I get asked this question quite a lot, which is how can I teach my son love and empathy? Okay.
[1:56]And I find that question really upsetting and baffling, as if we've now come to a point of thinking that boys are not born with love and empathy, whereas I know that boys are born loving and empathetic and non-violent and the violence that we see that has been created by patriarchy, which hurts men at higher numbers even than women statistically.
[2:20]Um they're indoctrinated and they're the love and empathy that they are born with, which is vast is siphoned away from a lot of them slowly but surely by the environment they might have grown up in, by the media, by music, by film, um the news, bad role models, social media. So I think it's really dangerous if we start to dehumanize men much in the way that many men have dehumanized women and we start to think they're born that way. It's not men, it's the patriarchy. It's the system. It's not the individuals. So what do you think is is is wrong with the system then? What are the issues that are facing men today? Why do you think we're in this position? I think the core issue is the fact that they're not really given that much guidance of what masculinity of like what beautiful healthy masculinity looks like. They're just told don't be a girl, don't cry, don't exhibit sensitivity. Don't ever allow yourself to be led in any way you must always only lead. And not everyone, male or female is built for that. So I think that's what it is is that men aren't really given a lot of leadership and and guidance that they need. Do you think we're in a worse position now then than then we are as men 30, 40 years ago? It's a complicated one, right? I think part of what's going on now is that women have the most autonomy and power they've ever had, and so for the first time in modern history, we have uh we pose a a threat to the power of men. You know, we're dominating in school, we're dominating in the housing market. Um, there's many industries in which women are coming up and rising to the top, and you look at the music industry dominated by women, the top 10, top 100 dominated by women. So I think what's happening now is for the first time ever the uh the playing field is being somewhat leveled, which is quite astonishing, given how much women have been held back, in a matter of decades, they've come up to the point where they are a viable threat. It's not a competition. Um, but there are some very insecure men in the world and I really don't think they represent the masses, but they are teaching men that they are so inept that they could never possibly compete with us on an even even playing field. So they're telling men, you can't grow, you can't ascend beyond where you are now, so you must keep women down. We've got to go back to subjugating women, take away their bodily rights, take away their employment rights, like mess up their health care, um, demean them, diminish them, stop hiring them. And I find that deeply emasculating because I've watched so many men in my life grow and ascend and become the people that I look up to and I rely upon. And um, so I would never emasculate men by saying, you've got a ceiling as your capacity for evolution. You've just spoken about men that you kind of look look up to and I'm unfortunately, you know, the rise of social media, which is fabulous for so many reasons, but also the devil in in some of the other reasons because it gives a voice to so many people who have um A load of bollocks to say, I think it's probably the the the nicest way of putting it.
[5:29]I always wish that young men would look up to the men that women are following. Um people like Mark Ruffalo and Pedro Pascal. Men who aren't afraid to be emotional, men who aren't afraid to be passionate. These are disobedient men. Like people think they're um simping to the female gaze, but actually there's such courage and disobedience in going against the patriarchal standard. I think men who are openly in touch with their feminine side to me are role models. And I think Mark Ruffalo is a wonderful example of someone who is politically outspoken. He's um, he's a manly man, he's a sexy man. Um, but he's also a man who's not afraid to cry and he's not afraid to care. Um, and he's not afraid to be friends with and to care for women. And I've been on set with him and the way that he treats the women onset is as his equals, because he's so secure in his masculinity that he does not feel threatened that we could take any of it away from him. Femininity is no threat to his masculinity and that to me is a real man. Why do you think platonic relationships between men and women are so important? Because I think there's still this kind of stereotype that men and women can't be friends and there's always one that fancies one or there's there's got to be a sexual undertone to it or or whatever else, which is utter bollocks. Why is it so important for for men to have strong friendships with women? I think because we balance each other out, and I think because we are phenomenal collaborators, and I think we have very different skills and different ways of working, and I think that um when put together magic happens.
[7:10]I collaborate with my boyfriend, we make music together. Um a lot of the my producers on my podcast are two men who love women. I see the deep beauty and importance of relationships and friendships that have no sexual or intimate, they have a different form of intimacy. It's intellectual intimacy, it's friendship, companionship. At the end of the day, we're all just people. And you've mentioned two kind of um public men who you see as as good role models personally for you, um who are the men in your life that have kind of um that you look up to, who who are role models in your life? You just mentioned friends that you live with and you work with a lot of men and I know you do a lot of stuff with Jordan Stevens who's been on this podcast. Do you see Jordan Stevens as someone that's a a role model? I think he's a great role model. Personally in my life, my brother is my ultimate role model for men. He's been the the standard and the bar. What makes him a good man? What makes your brother a good man? My brother's deep sense of empathy and care and he's not a fragile person. He's a deeply sensitive person. He's very in touch with his emotions and he uh is a straight man who loves Taylor Swift and he loves romcoms and Emily Bronte. Uh but he's got no fragility like his resilience, his stoicism through life is unbelievable. This is a man who's not afraid to cry, not afraid to hold a woman who's crying, but also who isn't really afraid of anything. I've never met a braver man. There's no one I would rely upon more in any kind of dangerous situation than my brother. He's just like my ultimate role model and always has been. How how old is your brother? He's 10 years older than me, so he's 49, 48, I think. So, you know, in an in an age that that he grew up in, that that is not really what men were supposed to supposed to be doing. No, he was really for it. He was bullied for it at school because people assumed that if you're feminine, you must be gay or something else.
[9:32]I noticed a trend in and this is anecdotal evidence, but I have been on this planet almost 40 years. And without fail, every man I've ever met who just seems to by their teen years, be the most phenomenal man that all women seem to love, super evolved, super wise, very resilient, very strong, are all men who had mothers who weren't well. All men who had to care for their mother in some way. Why are you smiling? Just interesting, mom. Okay. Do you disagree with me? No, I completely and utterly agree with you. Genuinely. Oh, thanks.
[10:20]Which is really weird because it's a a strange consider that's your undercooked hot take. I think you're bang on the money. Oh, thanks.
[11:36]Because I I completely agree with that and part of the reason that I'm even doing this pod is is to do with my mother. My mom from from a young age I felt like I had to care for and provide for my mom. She tried to take her life when I was 11. So it put me in a position where I grew up really, really quickly, which is why I'm so close with so many women because yeah. So I I think that's that's, you know, when we look at what what traits kind of make up a good man, it it's actually what traits make up a good person that men are lacking. That's kind of what I was getting at.
[17:38]I I think that's what I was struggling with is just like I really, you know, I think vulnerability is really important. I think rebellion is really important.
[18:04]being able to rebel against the stereotype, the the capitalism infused stereotype of what masculinity is supposed to be. Make your own masculinity. Be your own individual. You've got to be an alpha. Yeah. I'm an alpha. It's like there's only there can only be one alpha, you fucking twat. Like have you ever read a book? Yeah. Like you really think that you're the alpha and these are all your beta cucks who are listening to you. You're telling them they're alphas, but really, you know, you're the alpha. Why are men just listening to other men and then there's only men in the comment section that they think that's going to bring them any closer to women. Of course, there's a male loneliness epidemic for fuck's sake. Um I think a true alpha is someone who's guiding and leading their own path. Those are the true alphas. But rebellion, uh vulnerability, empathy, and and true care for others. Like true care for others. Be fucking self-sufficient. Care for others. It makes you feel so good about yourself. Service is such a great thing in this world. Go out, talk to young boys, go to schools as you do. Educate the young men, educate your friends. Um participate in our society. Help keep women safe. That's half of your society. If we all get absolutely fucked over and have all of our rights taken away, it's going to be miserable. Women are a wonderful part of society. We are funnier than you know. We hide how funny we are from you because we've been told by men that it's not sexy for us to be funny. That's man's thing. Um we're so so much more fun than you realize.
[20:01]You know, I want them to make time for themselves. I want them to be on their deathbeds and look back on a life lived, not a life served. It's incredible because um another guest we had in the first series said something that that's stuck with me and that is that that men have become human doings and they've stopped being human beings. Totally. It's, you know, that's that's kind of where we're at now and until men start becoming human beings again. We're really missing out on each other. And because I know men who have freed themselves from the shackles of patriarchy, we have such unbelievable friendships and we make such great work together. And I love them so much, and I would not be the person I am without them. I would not have, you know, like men have taught me how to stand up for myself, how to advocate for myself. I I love them so much. I'm rooting for them. I'm rooting for them so much more than any man is fair, twat, on this internet. So what I think we've we've come to the conclusion um at the end of this is is that you and I are going to start a campaign to help men and women come together. Yes, indeed. And listen, I think we've tried calling men out didn't really work. Calling men in didn't really work either. I'm calling men up. I'm calling them up to their potential. I believe in men. Bang. If you want to see some more of Jamila, which I encourage you to do, then you can listen to her podcast, Wrong Turns, available wherever you get your podcast. Uh she's also in um people we meet on vacation, which is on Netflix right now. So go check it out. Thank you for listening to man-made. There will be another episode next week. Make sure you rate, review, tell us what you think. Um get involved in the conversation. Uh subscribe. Do that. Definitely do that one. Um and you can catch us on all socials at manmade Pod. Ta-da.
