[0:07]Good morning and welcome everyone to our first unconventional careers panel discussion. My name is Michael Chandler, I'll be the moderator. And I'm joined here today by three of our alum, but also three entrepreneurs who have gone out into the world and maybe followed non-conventional career paths if you will. I'd like to introduce Adam Jacobs, excuse me, Matthew Bright and Katerina Kimmorley. So the theme for today's discussion or our panel discussion is going to be the path less trod if you will. Uh we call it the dark horse um theory or methodology if you will. And that is that in today's world, there are conventional careers in which we all know and love and and believe that that's the right uh path to take. But in the ever-changing landscape that we find ourselves in today, there are more unconventional careers and more unconventional ways in which to fulfill those career aspirations. The dark horse um mindset if you will, is following passions, following interests, vocational um aspirations that take you on a more uh non-conventional career path. But deliver you to I guess where you wanted to be in in the first place and at a much more rewarding sense. So that's what we're here to talk about today. The unconventional career series with three alum, three um of our entrepreneurs who have gone the path less chosen to share their experiences to to share their career um uh journeys if you will. And to impart a bit of knowledge on how they got to where they are today by less traditional means. So we'll make a start. Guys, if I could just start off, maybe just one by one, just uh introducing yourselves quickly and a little bit of your bio as well. Uh sure, so my my name's Adam Jacobs. Um I'm the founder of The Iconic, which is Australia's largest online fashion retailer, and also a company called Hatch, which is a uh jobs marketplace for young people. Um I studied philosophy uh and business at Sydney Uni, long time ago. Actually walking into the building today reminded me of just how long ago it was. Um and spent some time in strategy consulting in a more conventional path if you like, and then sort of took the the the leap into a less conventional path when I founded The Iconic back in 2011. Thank you. Matt. My name is Matthew Bright. Um I work over at Zip Co. We're a $4 billion payments company uh listed on the ASX. And I spent four years building a company that Zip acquired about a year ago, and uh we've just rebranded as Zip Business. I studied a Bachelor of Arts and a Master of Commerce at Sydney and work on the business alumni network, um mentor a few students and it's actually where I came up with the idea for this series in um exploring more unconventional paths and and knowing when to veer off the the traditional kind of banking or consulting thing and follow your passions and um and make things work. Katerina. So, my name's Katerina. I started also in a slightly conventional uh career path in consulting and energy, um but pretty quickly took a step off to found Pollinate Energy. Um and have since stayed um in the area of investing and venture capital investing and now um infrastructure and institutional investing in in climate and in sustainability. Um so I've sort of weaved in and out of conventional and unconventional, um and I've enjoyed both. Great. Awesome. All right, thanks guys. So as we can see, cross section of both um big business I guess and then starting off on on on their own um passions and pursuits. So a perfect test case or or group to have this conversation. So what I want to do is just very much make this a conversation as possible. Um if I can go along uh and everyone give their first take on I guess what was your first What I want to do is take it back a step. Okay? So let's take it right back to the transition from university into the career world. Okay? Something that I guess we call it the audience will be able to resonate with. Um, so we'll take it back to the early days. So tell me about please your first job as a newly minted graduate of Sydney Uni. Sure. Um, I think for me, you know, coming out of university, I certainly felt the um social expectations or pressures around like moving into conventional path. Um, and it means different things at different at different eras. I suppose like back then, this is 2000 uh 6 when I graduated, 2006, yeah. Um, you know, it was sort of law consulting, maybe a little bit of engineering not so much. Today, maybe it's more like tech. Um, you know, changes over time. But so I I was really keen on consulting and just loved the idea of um solving diverse problems across a range of industries and working with really brilliant bright people. Um so applied to a bunch of consulting firms, got into none of them. Um mostly because I think I didn't focus enough on my grades uh in the first couple years of uni, so I just didn't hit this quite arbitrary grade bar that the consulting firms um applied. Um so instead, my first job was with a hotel group called Accor, which is um a large global group. They have, you know, Novotel and Sofitel and a bunch of others. And I was developing hotels. So buying, selling, um doing management agreements, franchise agreements all around APAC. Um loved that. Actually learned a lot about it, particularly from the person I reported to, that was the main value of my first job, was just learning from from my manager. Um and then a year later, I actually ended up going into consulting, first into PWC and then into BCG. Um so I think I think my starting story is one where I very much felt the pull or the need of like fulfilling some social expectations of like, whether it be family or friends or just the community around me and just, you know, found the path to do that. Awesome. Awesome, Matt. So I didn't have the traditional grad job. Um I started out at Sydney doing my BA undergrad, working for a couple of entrepreneurs building a music festival business. So that was probably what really cut my teeth into having, you know, entrepreneurial DNA from the get-go. Um I guess like Adam said, I probably felt the social expectation to go onto a more conservative path and um I was actually really fortunate to work for a partner at a top tier law firm and thought I'd do grad law like most humanities students. And I found myself I guess on the inside of what, you know, Facebook investor Peter Thiel said like, uh, when he was when he started as a lawyer, I found myself on the inside of, you know, a place where people were inside were trying to get out and outside were trying to get in. So, I actually enrolled in a in a master of commerce at Sydney and, you know, at that stage, 2006, everybody wants to be an investment banker. Never happened. Great thing it didn't. Found what I was really interested in. Um, you know, excelled in entrepreneurship units of study, um, you know, innovation and that side of things. But I was really early. There wasn't actually that much happening in Australia like there is now in that space. So I did the banking thing and then, you know, down the track, eventually I got to, I guess the the objectives and interests and things that university fostered and and ended up in the text base. Katerina. Yeah, I mean, I guess I realized pretty early on that I had to be super motivated if I was going to get up and do this every day. Um and for me, I had been quite active in the climate movement at university, um and so kind of bled that into my initial job.
[7:05]Um and got lucky. It was um quite an exciting time in the in the climate space here. I was a consultant and then joined the Office of the Premier to do some really interesting work on on climate policy in Australia. Um but then, you know, quite quickly you realize I think what it's not just about my motivation, it's also about sort of skills and um as much as I loved working for other people and in giant machines, um that actually I loved having autonomy and independence and things like that. So I pretty quickly moved from that first role to to do a bit more study. I did my masters and started my PhD at the London School of Economics as a way really to kind of get a bit of a, I guess a better understanding of myself and meet some more people and some more paths. Um and from that um my PhD led into founding of my business, which then sort of took over my life. But definitely having that mixture of motivation around sort of climate and sustainability and poverty and if you don't solve one of those, you can't solve the other, being the motivation, but then the practical application of that being an entrepreneurial path rather than working always um sort of in a larger corporate or government job. That's interesting, because that leads into the next question I had around um do you believe that your degree or your experience at Uni really gave you those tools to be able to go out and follow those passions? I do, but I think it's nuanced. Um I think, you know, if you have a passion area, say it's climate or say it's tech, or say it's humanities, um my experience running a company is that actually you need every different skill set working on that area. So we need, you know, great people in tech, we need great people um, you know, in in HR. We need all the whole smattering. So if you have an area that you love working on, um and you know that you're good at, and a passion, that's the best bit. Like I just don't think that you need to assume that you need to be an environmental scientist to work on climate. Absolutely not the case. Um what I really need is, you know, great people in tech, really. So, you know, it's um you really, it's a, you can sort of combine your passion, your skills quite a lot, I think, more than most people conventionally think about it when they look at these different areas. Okay. Okay. Adam, you raised a really interesting point before around coming out and um openly acknowledging the marks. How was that for you, I guess, when you experienced a little bit of rejection I guess when you came out? How did you how did you um channel those emotions? How did you deal with I guess rejection at an early stage coming out of uni? Yeah, I mean, I guess the first thing to say is I don't regret it at all. Like I wouldn't go back and focus more on my marks. The reason why my marks suffered was um in the first two years at uni, I joined the Sydney Uni American football team. And played wide receiver and it was like this really unusual thing to do in Australia um play American football and it was so much fun. It was like this community and um we like built built the club and we like really got into it and I learned as much through doing that as I did through studying. It was just this whole rich life experience. So like I wouldn't I wouldn't change that. Um what what I did, yeah, I was struck with, hang on a second, like, how do I deal with this rejection? And I think I think the way I dealt with it was honestly just to double down on like work ethic. I was like, I thought I could cruise through here on some natural ability. I'm wrong. You've actually got to work for what you want. So now I'm going to work at it. Um and I made sure that my first job um I like really put myself into and and um learned from and performed in and was able to tell that story when I then made a subsequent application to a consulting firm and they looked at that experience and said, you know, this person was rejected, but look what they've now done, they've worked hard and, you know, we should, you know, we should value that experience. Um yeah, that's the lesson I took out of it.
[10:39]That's really good messaging, that's really good. And Matt with, I want to to because you came straight out the bat with a more um entrepreneurial or obscure view if you will, compared to the uh
[10:59]Probably the inverse of having an end goal. Like I think I just actively worked on things I was really interested in and and on and off curriculum and figured out what I was good at. And I I think just on top of what Adam was saying with in terms of the marks, like I think your capstone project at university is equally as important as the marks and that's often the thing that gets you over the line. And for me that was a Silicon Valley field trip, that was an infrastructure funds paper that I wrote at university which, you know, you create these pieces of IP that, you know, you, I think as a student you can really use LinkedIn and get those out there and and link in with people who that matters to and it really resonates and that is for me is like much more substantive than what your marks are. And, you know, I found myself in Europe and working in a Dutch bank and that infrastructure funds thing was one of the the things that actually got me hired to work in principal investing years later. So you never know what you create now and then the direction that your career takes and those little um kind of door openers that you have that you've worked on. Yeah. Katerina with your work on climate advocacy, that was at a time where my it was it a bit early for where we are now and how did you how did you um pursue an area that was maybe a little bit of ahead of its time or didn't have the focus that it certainly has now? Yeah, it was, but I actually picked up on your point there that I think that it was unique in that it had, you know, a bit of a point of difference, but I really used particularly my masters, my PhD as um an excuse to go out and meet all the awesome people who were doing amazing things. I kind of created a TV series and all these other sort of random, slightly associated with university projects um to basically get the chance to network and to meet these people who I had huge brain crushes on, basically. Um both in sort of academic world and in sort of the business world as well. So especially at times like now during COVID, when the university's sort of system is slightly different. I do think you need to use the excuse of being at university and studying to help you find paths into meeting different people and um creating different opportunities for yourself that really um was the case for me and and was the case in climate as well. Um so yeah, I think, but you can apply that to sort of any area that you're interested in. But using as an excuse to reach out to mentors, to reach out and create projects where you, yeah, have an inside track and can pursue something that you really are interested in. Yeah. One thing that really strikes me with the um with all three of you, is that you all have a very much uh entrepreneurial inverted commas, but very much a go-getter attitude. You've all done things like you said, doubling down. You're talking about, you know, working with mentors. You're talking about moving into things that you're passionate about. You've all got very much a a different view on how to go about your business, but very much a self starter. So what would be your advice be I guess to anyone watching this, um as far as maybe um don't have or feel that they don't have that quality or maybe a little bit insular or or maybe that's that's um something foreign if you will. What would your advice be I guess to those out there to just swallow it and go out and put themselves out there? I think I I would pick up on something Katerina was saying earlier around um worry less about your your plan and worry more about your passion. And um, you know, I I don't think there's a blueprint to success. Like I've seen people take all sorts of different paths. Like I have a really close friend who dropped out of uni in first year because he just wanted to build something and didn't have the patience to study. Um built a really valuable company, sold it to Apple, worked at Apple for a while and has now building another really valuable company and his path looks nothing like mine. Um but he's probably, you know, one of the most successful entrepreneurs I know. Um and and I and I guess like when when I look at all these people taking different paths, what I take out of it is like there isn't a path you should follow. Um there's this idea that a career is a ladder and you should map out your steps. And my belief is a career is actually like a maze. You can't you really can't predict too far into the future. All you really need to do is think about your next decision and whether you want to go left or right. And and make that decision like more with your your gut than with your brain. You know, the question is what would make me feel alive every day? You know, the I suppose something that's really difficult is like figuring out your passion or your purpose. And you can't actually sit down in an armchair and figure out your your purpose. And in any case, it's something that changes over time. It's more like a pursuit that you have over your life. So all you really need to do is figure out what's going to make you excited right now to get up out of bed and do something that day and go and do that thing and see where it leads you. And that's kind of the most important advice I could give to anyone. That's a really good point. And and you raised that before around um you wouldn't have changed anything back in your early days. I want to I want to ask you guys, hindsight's wonderful, right? 2020 Vision as we've always heard. What would you change? If anything at all, or what would you say to your younger self now? Ask both of you that question, that same question. You're going to try some crazy stuff and it'll probably work out. I think as Adam said, it's it's definitely a path and a pattern making thing. And I think you the more that you, the more risk that you take or unconventional things that you do or the way that you go about building your life or your career, the more comfortable you get in that, you know, kind of pattern forming habit style of doing things. And you'll get these great inflection points. You might have a great three to five years in one job, it's done, you're on to the next one. Um but it's really, I guess, you don't have to be an entrepreneur to be entrepreneurial. You can put things together on on your own terms. Um and I think that's our theme today about the dark horse mindset. There's the standardization mindset of you pursue this job um, you know, based on that career and that leads to fulfillment or you can actually start with something that's fulfilling and as Adam said that's going to change at intervals and then you'll achieve and get excellence out of that. So I think it almost runs contrary to how the way the world has structured it a little bit. But it requires a lot more, I guess, ownership and drive to get those things done. But I think, you know, as Katerina was saying, you can go out there, you can create your own TV series, you know, you can, you know, there's so much media available to you that um, you know, you're able to create a blog, you know, you can create your own YouTube channel. If you wanted, that is done well, that's the thing that would stand out in the new world that we've all entered. Yeah. Katerina. Yeah, I think I wouldn't change a thing, even though there's been huge highs and huge lows. Um but what I would probably say to my younger self is just to let go of all of those, I guess conventional things we've all talked about, expectations, we thought we should do as early as possible. Um because at every point, and and not to be so disappointed when things don't work out. I've had a bunch of things not work out. Um you know, I've had two voluntary redundancies. One was when I was working for the Premier and then there was a change of government and then the new Premier didn't believe in climate change anymore. Um and at the time, that was just devastating. Um I used that money to found my company, which was the best thing that ever happened to me. All of those moments and it's so sort of you hear it all the time that one door closes and another opens, but it's so the case. I do every point that that has happened. It feels so devastating in the moment, but very quickly you realize, oh, that's why that happened. So just to not get so hung up on the disappointments on the journey to try and enjoy the whole thing. Um I think would be the only thing, because it's changed so quickly and it will can change even more quickly, I think in the next few years, what a career looks like. Um and what skills you need for that career, that every little bit that you gather along the way always like comes back and is valuable, you just don't always know why. Yep. And if I could just add a point on top, just building on that, I think I think there's actually a misunderstanding in general of like what a career is. And I think we when we start we think a career is an effort to prove ourselves to like show that we can build skills and make money and achieve title and status and reputation and um, you know, this is a career is like the vehicle to do that. To say to the world, here I am and I've got capabilities and I'm going to prove you how good I am. Maybe I'm simplifying a little bit, but that's kind of how I think we're we're taught, you know, what careers are. I think a career is actually an opportunity to find ourselves. And it's a really different thing. It's it's an opportunity to to to be authentic for a moment and to stop and think, what do I care about and how do I want to contribute to the world? And those two different approaches are really different. Like if you start with I'm going to prove myself, then maybe you go after the investment banking job just because that's the one that people really respect and admire. And and I've got a lot of friends who went down that path and hate their life. I won't name them, but they they they wake up being all like, why did I do this? Um and I think if you start off with the question of like, what do I really care about and how might I just spend more time on that, Um that's that's the kind of key that leads you to drive, like leads you to finding who you are, makes you feel alive and makes you like want to go out and contribute to the world. Um so yeah, I guess I guess that's something that I feel like I learned too late in at least I've learned it now, so it's, you know, maybe not too late. But um wish I'd learned or at least wish someone had told me earlier in my career. That's a that's a really interesting point and that's something I just want to ask you guys just to finish up this first section. And that is um Katerina, you raised that point before around you've got um kids, graduates, whoever they might be that have sat with parents, have sat with mentors, have sat with lecturers, have sat with um trusted teachers at school. This is where we're going, this is what we're doing, this is what I want to do. And that might not be the case, right? It might diverge off that. How what advice would you give those those youngsters when they have to sit down with those ones, whether it be a spouse, a wife, a partner, a husband, whoever that might be, or a teacher, a mentor and just say, you know what, I've got this idea. I'm going to back this. How do you feel? How would you go about managing those those interactions or those dynamics? Well, I actually um call on what a mentor said to me in one of those situations, like you were talking about where I was conflicted between I kind of had all the consulting offers and I also had just handed in my master's thesis and wanted to move back to India to start my company and I called a mentor and said, you know, I think I'm going to do this crazy thing and and moved to India and start this business. Um and she said to me, look, you know, um I would never have done that 10 years ago. You know, I wanted to be a doctor like my parents and then I went into investment banking like, you know, I was meant to at that age. Um but it doesn't really matter what I say to you right now because if you do take on this, you know, new venture, most likely, you'll be the one who's hi, oh, I was very concerned that because I always wanted to work for her. Sorry, I should add that context. You know, would you still hire me in five years if I'd done this crazy thing instead of becoming a consultant? And she was like, it doesn't really matter what I say to you right now because the question will probably be in five years, will you hire me?
[21:39]Um which I must say, I would never she's still amazing. I would never hire her. But I do think, you know, the dynamics change a lot very quickly. So the questions you would ask and the mentors you reach out to, you know, it it does change and taking these sort of untrodden paths lead you to like a set of opportunities that you could have never expected. Um so I wouldn't always reach out to the same mentors or if you're reaching out to mentors, then hopefully they have an open enough mind to how quickly things are changing that they won't have always the best advice. I think any kind of risk taking behavior is going to alarm a parent or a spouse, but they just need to understand the context and why you're doing what you're doing. And look, I can say that, you know, I jumped on a plane and moved to Amsterdam from scratch. I worked out of the Dutch public library there, which was amazing. Uh pounded the pavement for six weeks, had a Frenchman hire me to work in structured energy commodity trade finance. Just a random punt, made it work. Then I had a Dutchman hire me on top of that, and then I ended up in the principal investments group. And it was like something so far out there, but, you know, people sort of looked at me like, why are you moving to a foreign country? But okay. I did it, it worked, and it teaches you these skills of resilience and resourcefulness and, um, I guess you it also breaks down, I guess your personal levels of, um, rejection. Like, you know, there's this, um, there's this great study which is called like the paperclip test where somebody started with a paperclip and gradually traded it and got up to a car. So it's all and they tested it at Yale and with a student base and what they found is this kind of tolerance for rejection actually really plateaued over time. So I think you need that resilience to go out there and face harder things and have harder conversations with people. And, you know, what what's also happened now is what we have in Australia in in terms of a functioning tech eco ecosystem with, you know, a few billion dollars of venture capital and, you know, brands like Zip or Afterpay or Atlassian or Canva that are now, you know, they're they're almost like, you know, kind of corporate level jobs. Um and, you know, what's emerged there is that's de-risked that field of entrepreneurship. You can go to work in a venture back company, you will learn more in a year than you would in three years in a grad job in a sta old corporate and why would you want to go work for a boomer in a boomer industry where you can wear jeans and sneakers to work and do fun stuff, you know?
