[0:00]Why look at a monument only from the historical perspective. History is there in Google. But people didn't realize that when the monument was being built, history was not there. So if you talk about Haji Ali being built, 400 back there was no history. Siddi Vinayak being built, there was no history. Mount Mary Church, there was no history. History came after the monument was built. Even Taj, history came after it. So now actually what happens when a monument is being built, you are dealing with engineering. Name any monument of the country or the world, you cannot do it without engineering. So even if we look at the Indus Valley civilization, anything that was there, had engineering in it. And engineering, as we all know, is physics, chemistry, maths.
[0:48]Welcome to Will Talks. Today, I have an incredible gentleman, Mr. Sandeep Sethi and we are going to be talking so much about how children learn. What are monuments and how you can use monuments for education. Welcome to Will Talks. I'd love to hear about how you got inspired, what got you started, anything you'd like to share with our audience in terms of setting the context. Thank you so much, George, and it's very interesting to share, you know, what we were doing earlier and what we are doing now. So I come from a very normal school, but I had a problem I could not study the normal way. I think that time it was neither dyslexia, it was nothing like that. But I had to understand. So if you tell me something to learn by heart, I cannot, but if I understood it then I can deliver it on my own way. So my schooling from Jamnabai was like that. It was a project school, so luckily they were able to handle us and groom us that way. But otherwise, while I was teaching, I used to always find this challenge that I cannot teach from the textbook. Whether I have taught mathematics, accountancy, economics, business studies, entrepreneurship, I had to keep the textbook away. And that was fun for me because I could create more things when the textbook was away. I was not, you know, stuck up with the boundaries of the textbook. So my teaching began the way it was in Jamnabai, it was more of exhibitions. So we used to have projects and slowly by slowly, like I had 25 years of exhibiting my subject. And then it became into an academic play. It was all by sheer chance that one boy was troubling the class, so we made him stand separately and I said you only act it out. And he acted it out and that year we realized, oh god, we can convert all chapters into plays. And then we didn't consult Barry John, but he said Sandeep, you know, what you want to do, I can't do what you are doing. But do call me for the first function. And for seven years we did education through theatre. And with, you know, I have also a problem that I cannot do the same thing again. I have to have it in a new angle. So seven years I had no chapters left to be done. So we were doing full-fledged textbooks into two to three hour academic plays and we've traveled the country with that. Then came the Covid time. Covid time, schools were getting shut, our teachers were not getting their jobs. So we came up with a concept of using the art teacher for the comic books. So we developed graphic novels. You cannot make a graphic novel without a story and you cannot have a story without applications of subjects. So that is where we picked up how to make a graphic novel. It was a challenge, but I think it was all planned that way because we made one book and we presented to the CBC chairperson, Anita Karval ma'am, that time. And she said why one? I said ma'am, we'll make more. And with her guidance and then she became the education secretary. And then it was Mr. Manoj Aja, who was a CBC chairperson and we hit it. We were able to do 200 comic books across the country with around 100 schools and some of them in audio forms also. Again, there had to be some change in it. I couldn't do the same thing again. That was just a time that I was entering the City Palace, that is Maharaja Swai Man Singh Museum to trust as a director education for the country. So it was for the museum but we were allowed to work across. And we do academic festivals every year. So we curated festivals on the subject history, then we did on geography and Gandhi, then we did something on folk art, but all academic. I cannot, I can do fun activities, but it has to be linked up with academics. And that's the time we struck upon education from monument. Believe me, when we started, we did not know what the level would be. We did our two years of research that what we normally spend and we again presented it to the education secretary India. She said Sandeep, don't stop. And even now her statement is don't stop till you've completed 500 monuments. So luckily we've done 200 now. But it just came up that, you know, why look at a monument only from the historical perspective? History is there in Google. But people didn't realize that when the monument was being built, history was not there. So if we talk about Haji Ali being built, 400 back, there was no history. Siddhi Vinayak being built, there was no history. Mount Mary Church, there was no history. History came after the monument was built. Even Taj, history came after it. So now actually what happens when a monument is being built, you are dealing with engineering. Name any monument of the country or the world, you cannot do it without engineering. So even we look at the Indus Valley civilization, anything that was there, had engineering in it. And engineering, as we all know, is physics, chemistry, maths. But we do not look at the monument from the physics, chemistry, maths perspective. Economics, political science, geography, where the material has come from, history is there. But all other subjects were neglected. I think that is how this project became so big. It's all national. And we were, it was first difficult to explain to principals and teachers, how would we do it? How do we do it? But with people from Class 24 and other resource people, we were able to get the right people to start off. So they started up with five, six experiments. And then what I always praise the teachers is, you show them two, they'll make 100 more. But if you don't show them the first two, they are so locked with work, you know, whichever board they are teaching, they are, they've got lots on their plate. So to give them a new task is difficult, but if you tell them how it can be done, hand hold them, then they're all games. So that's how we've been able to reach. So we were supposed to begin with the Jaipur History Festival, but unfortunately or fortunately for us, Varanasi gave us a date earlier. And we were able to do 22 monuments in Varanasi. A lot of stress because it was the first festival. But everyone understood what to do, and the base of that festival led us to the Jaipur History Festival, which was earlier aligned. The date was a little late, and we had 60 schools visiting Jaipur History Festival on monuments all from the country. And surprisingly, certain schools only sent the teachers to see across NCR just to see how it was to be done. So we were very happy, we had 20 schools from outside performing and 12 schools only come to see the festival. And then when they went back, I didn't we didn't stop. So we had the third festival in Mumbai in February. I was shocked they did 18 monuments there at RNP Podar School. And you know, like every school had their own technique how to do it. Certain schools were doing one per school. One monument per school. Certain schools like the Palace School did four monuments in one school. And Avni ma'am just took it over, she said 18 monuments in my ninth grade. So, you know, and that became good for us because when we went out from there we always spoke about this. What you want, you want one per school or four per school or 18 per school. And with that, we had festivals in Delhi hosted by KR Manglam. A lot of schools from outside also came to perform. And the education sector there and the CBSE people all were there to see it. Then we did our fourth festival in Gurgaon. Gurgaon it was conducted by DPS 45 and the level of the festival which they created, I couldn't see it happening anywhere else. You know, that hospitality and the whole dedication, means it was a grand affair, a real grand affair. And after that, we did a festival much later in Pune. And luckily for us, after doing Jaipur, Varanasi, Gurgaon, Delhi, and Mumbai, we are on to Pune. We finished off Pune last year. Then we went off to, we are going off to Jammu now, and the forthcoming festivals for us are Baroda. Gwalior, Indore, maybe Leh Ladakh, and of course we're talking about Nala Supara. So Nala Supara turns out to be the most intriguing. You remember when I had the first meeting that, you know, for me it was very fascinating, you know, to bring a festival to Nala Supara. And unfortunately, we know Nala Supara only from Kapil Sharma's show, nothing more than that. But even my visit today and the moment I shared this topic with you, you said, oh, we've got monuments. So we did our research, and so now we talk with a lot of schools, I'm there in Kashmir on 20th. We've done our research and we go there. So they don't have to worry. In fact, two days back I was in Indore. There also I said, research we have done. So we have a team who does our research and then we share it to schools and it's a lot of fun. So this completely brilliant. I think with the way the way children learn in schools, right, we've learned, oh, there are seven wonders of the world and. And that to seven wonders you'll only see from the history perspective, nothing else. Exactly. And, and so, you know, when you tell a child that, oh, there is a monument 3 km from your house, or 2 km from your house, um that might be very difficult for children to digest because uh a the way, the way structured education and schooling comes through. um children tend to believe and give excessive weightage to what they see in a textbook. Only the textbook. Only the textbook, right? right. Yeah. I saw it. So interesting what happened when we were doing Mumbai and the child suggested that we should take up a monument, which is not a historical monument, but the Vali Sea Face. And of course, my team was not happy, but I said, it makes a lot of sense. History will come when it will come. But when we did the revolutions around Vali Sea Face, we realized that the Kolis had created a problem because they didn't want the pillars to be so close because the steamers would not go through, the Fishery community. And of course, they wanted some space because the fishers could be there. Now, this is how Mumbai should relate to a revolution or a rebel. Other than trying to cram up the Narmada Andolan. So every city has a Andolan. So when you move around, you realize, so, you know, then it's good for the Bombay students to know, okay, we also had an Andolan. Now they understand Andolan better. Otherwise only cramming up Narmada. Yeah. And I think you you know, it's a project that we started, but of course our outcomes are coming much more than what we expected. So the children have started to think. Unfortunately our textbooks don't give them much opportunities to think and the teachers also genuinely hurried to finish up the course. Teachers are only thinking how to finish it. We can't blame the teachers because they are under stress. So you have to take out time, let the teachers breathe, let the children breathe and when they start thinking, you cover so many more topics. So the book that we are coming out with 101 experiments sorted out. Each experiment is aligned, NCERT is the king of all boards. So all boards come under them. It's aligned to a particular chapter, to a particular concept. Be it any board, it is there in every course of it, you know, even IBB would be having it. So it's fun to get something as common which can cut across boards. Yeah, so what would you, what would you consider a monument? And the reason I ask is because there could be so many schools and principals across the nation. Who'd think like, oh, Taj Mahal is really far away from us and, and oh, someone's already done Taj Mahal. So, so what do you think is a monument? What could be considered as a monument? How would you expand the scope of that monument and, you know, how does a school use that to teach and really is the responsibility of the school only limited to finishing a prescribed text or is it also the or does it also go beyond that to maybe become a gateway or help children discover where they are in time and space? So when I go to a principal's office, normally, we have a group where there are 200 to 300 principals there and we keep on post putting up posts there. So when we talk to them, maybe online, offline, I tell them, ma'am, just show the camera to your classroom or the office where you're sitting in. I said, can you see physics there? So, for the principal, it takes a little second to understand what I'm talking about. I said, can you see chemistry there? So then they ask a few questions, then they start saying everything. I said the air conditioner, which is there, is physics. The stone which you have used on the floor, there is a chemistry behind it. It's not anything like that. So then they realize, oh, he's talking this way. So I said everything in your room is also mathematics, but you've not looked at it from that angle. So once they get the hint of that, then they are very happy because now they can see. So I said your auditorium is a monument for me. You know, we can do a research on that also. And if we go out, there are other issues also to relate to it because the geography part will come up there where did the stone come from. It happens in our rooms also. So once a principal gets the hang of it, then we take a session with teachers and we show them the monuments. And luckily now any school which joins us now, we've got so much to show. So we've got some lovely audio clips, the entire 22 monuments of Varanasi when they're coming down to Jaipur, they made a beautiful video out of that. I'll share it with you, you can perhaps add it in this. And, you know, when we go there, especially when there's a little crazy teacher, you don't plan much. You have it in your mind, but you go and you explore more. So I remember coming out from that Varanasi auditorium at Sunbeam, and they were doing a rehearsal for the Ganga Aarti for some other function. I just told the principal let me just see that. I saw it. I said, why don't you bring the Ganga Aarti to Jaipur? She said, how is it related to monuments? I said, you don't understand. Ganga, right? So Ganga, a monument. Okay, so the river also has a story. So then this Ganga Aarti came with all costumes and drama to Jaipur. They were there for four days and we had six performances. One everyday and two we sent off to the local schools because I said they've not seen Ganga Aarti. Let them have the feel of it. You know, and the participants who come all the way from Varanasi, you know, children have spent their time. I said they'll enjoy more when they're performing six times for them it's a big kick, you know. We went there and we had to perform everyday. So that enjoyment factor comes up. And when I'm talking about the thinking thing, I was shocked. For Haji Ali project, when they were doing the research, they said, sir, the tidal waves hit the rock. Can we generate electricity from that? So I said, no, that's for you to think. So they're doing a project to understand when the waves are hitting a monument, is energy being produced? Now the answer may be no. But that's fine. At least they're thinking about it. Similarly, went to, like you mentioned, Gateway. So Gateway of India has become such a dear project for us right now, because to take the children there was a little challenge from you go from Santa Cruz to that place. But when the children observed that, they gave us some excellent suggestions. It's not in the textbook. They asked, sir, the rock is being eroded because of sea waves, sea moisture. You can see salt on the rocks also. Now, obviously this is going to erode the rock still fast. Then there's another pollution coming up. All the streamers going from the Gateway of India to Elephanta caves are throwing a lot of fumes. So I said no what can we solve? We can't save the moisture from the sea to come to the rock, but what about the diesel fumes? So they said fine, why don't they have PUC? Okay, now how can we have PUC? Again it's not in our course. So, why can't we file a PIL? So now again they are writing to the environmentalist that it's not a difficult task. You just check the engines, it's it's part of the economy to check that and to save the rock that way. Pigeons are creating a menace. So we spoke to PETA. We said, can we do something about it? They said Sandeep, we want to have pigeons not fed near the monuments because they're creating a lot of medical problems. Asthma issues are going to come up. So we didn't have all this information like, you know, we explored. The children explored. It's not it's not in the text. But I have always realized even when I was doing theatre with my children, when they do an activity, they enjoy coming to school. And they listen to you better. And then when you give them work, they finish their course very fast. So I imagine me teaching accountancy in grade 11th and 12th and having theatre during school hours, how could my course get over? But I was the first one to finish all my courses. And this is something that parents need to understand, right? Because parents think that if you do any other way of teaching, they would think a lot of time, yeah. Yeah. So But actually it's not true, it's true at all, but it's not the parents, it's got three or four segments to understand. First of all, you have to have a little mad principal to understand your thoughts. I keep on asking my father, St. Einstein, I said, Father, why did you allow me to do theatre? I was doing exhibitions, you were happy with that. How come you allowed me to do theatre? He said, honestly, Sandeep, I didn't know what you were talking about. But I saw the passion and no teacher comes to us, you know, to experiment. And the best part we were not asking for funds. You said I'll manage everything. You only give me the money of the school fete stall. I'll manage everything through that. And he said, if you had failed, I would have stopped this activity. But you went up up up like you made it a national thing. We were performing on National School of Drama. So he said you reached that level. So how could I stop? And the principal has to have that vision with their teachers. So there's a mad teacher and a principal who's willing to experiment. Maybe it will drop out. Then the challenge comes with the colleagues because colleagues have to come on board and they feel, oh, there's additional work. So while I was in school, I had this problem that my colleagues were a little challenged because they found comparison between their performances and my work. But now when I'm an outsider, and once a principal is convinced, then the principal convinces the teachers, so I don't have to do that. And once the teachers realize that they didn't look at it from that angle, and especially now when we show them five festivals done, a coffee table book coming up. Not one, in fact, we've got Bombay, Pune, Gwalior, they all will be coming up with separate coffee table books. So now they see the recognition part, that whatever effort they're putting in is going to have a big outcome. So things are a little easier for me. Earlier it was a challenge. So parents need to understand that if you, if you creatively teach, it may not look like, you know, teaching in a class. Children come and tell what they have learned in this school today. Then the parents also start understanding and of course, I request every school to have a small festival to show it to their parents. Because when the parents understand, you know, when they see the terms physics, chemistry, all in that, then they understand, okay, fine. It's, you know, experiment, this is what we talk about experimenting. We remember today, in Pune, I remember like how I learn. I go on a wheelchair in auditorium or less. So I'm the best audience because I'll listen to every child. Because a lot of people just come and go back, so it's very upsetting for children. But I want to learn more. So I remember there's this beautiful dam that they created in Pune. And they, of course, used white dupattas to show the water flowing. And I was being a little smart and telling them, you know, you could have kept a blue transparent paper beneath that white. So you could have a bluish image of water. Can we imagine what the child turned back and told me? No idea. So the flowing water is always white. So that was the child that also thought about it. Maybe the art teacher and those people have done some research. But I remember what I learned from that exhibition. Bluntly, she said flowing water is always white. And I got it, you know, I appreciate her for being so blunt and tell me that. So there's so much fun. You means, you know, people say, you have a monument, monument, of course, has history in it, no doubt because there's so many years. But try to understand what was the shape of the dome and why, why were the arches there not rectangle gates? Why were the steps so steep in the beginning, why were they not? What sort of ventilation was happening there? What about water clogging? So when you start thinking, where did the stone come from? Why was this stone selected and not any other stone? And if you go up to a fort, there's so much to learn. You go to Jaigarh Fort and you try to understand. For three years, if there were no the people couldn't come down and there were no rains. There was enough water in the tank. And with every year of rain, the water is being collected in the tanks. So people thought about it that way, 300, 400 years back. And that is very inspiring and motivating for a child because when a child, especially the way education is marketed today. a lot of ideas are taken from the west, Bloom's Taxonomy or or John Dwe, you know, when you look at these these theories, all these theories are probably 50 years old, 60 years old, behaviorist theory, maybe 100 years old. But when you look at a monument that has stood the test of time, 300 years old, ago or 400 years ago, when you look at a monument that old, and then when you bring the science, you bring the rational, you bring the thinking, the reasons that let them to to design the way they design. I think that then inspires children to know that, oh, learning is not a new thing. Yeah. And then it's simply, you understand. So what I am failed facing as a problem is, I have not reached south. And South is flooded with temples and there's so much of culture in that. So maybe I've not had an access to that. Nor then like Bombay, Gujarat are coming up perfectly well. And what I've also seen like a school like Signus World School Baroda, they took part in the Jaipur festival. So now they are creating a festival in Baroda with 15 other schools. So it's not that, you know, people are holding back. I think since Covid time, we all have understood, it's a lot of collaborative work. So if there is some information coming, people are happy sharing with others. So if a school has done maybe five experiments in a monument, I've been able to collect 100, and I'm sharing it with all the schools who have taken part and who are not taking part also. Because I feel that the teachers when they go through that, the application of physics and chemistry and maths will be done in a better way, rather than just picking up examples from the book. And luckily NCERT has only mentioned, Sandeep, don't stop till 500. So they've also understood the impact of the things which are happening. So it's a win-win for all. You know, there's a lot of PR value for the school, children are happy, they do a cultural program, they go out, it's a, you know, like well-planned field visit. There's a lot of research happening. So the schools, principals have started to see the fun in it. Yeah, it's actually brilliant. Like St. Verri Broad School in Nalasopara, when we were discussing, uh, today, we came up with, you know, monuments like, uh, the Jetty where the Roro is coming in. Right, nowadays, uh, the Vasai fort, uh, inside the Vasai fort, there are two, three different things which could be like monument. Yeah, so for me, I have learned from history, so I will feel bad, oh, it's not 100 years old. So, like I just mentioned to you earlier, that we have the modern Gaziabad railway station. Oh, we have that as a monument because, okay, history is not in it, but everything else is there. Yeah, and when you add time to it, it becomes one factor. Yeah, that's just one factor. So people have said, okay, can we do the ambience small? I just paused a second, I said, why not? Because I can see all the subjects there. Yeah. Again, history may not be much prevalent there, but it'll have its own history, and the history will come with time. But physics, chemistry, maths, everything is already there. Yeah, so we are perfectly fine by then. We have Jivani Temple, which we are going to be looking at. We've got the Tungareswar Wildlife Sanctuary. We've got two inhabited islands, the Panju Island and Arnala Island with a sea fort in it. Um, we've got some salt pans. So, when I, when you showed them to me, you know, when we show salt this thing to them, they can, they take it as a research to compare it with the other parts of the country, what happens. So immediately and thankfully Google is there. It may not give you the 100% correct information, but you have something nice to see. So something nice to explore. And you have to use all these systems with the children to get them hooked. You cannot tell them, go and pick up a textbook and do research. Research, textbook, I think it's okay. I'm not against it, but I still say you can get your information from anywhere. One of the schools put up a question to me, sir, can we do a monument which is not in our city from a different country? I said, go ahead and try it. Means why, who am I to stop them? They are exploring, let them enjoy that. So the children and teachers, you have to understand that if they're thinking, why are we stopping them to think? And this is what I think normally a lot of principles and academic heads do, you're not supposed to think. You do as you are being told, but then they are just delivering as robots, so there's not much in it. What is your, as a teacher, your application to that? And even when I was doing graphic novels, a lot of them didn't know how to do it. I said, if you have the passion, I'm with you. But remember one thing, you've got an opportunity to create something which will be there in the universe forever, even after you go. And now because things are like that, nothing will disappear. So you're getting an opportunity, don't miss out. Don't say that, oh, we were taught this way, we are doing the same way. I can't do change. Yeah, in fact, like schools are educational institutions and just like higher educational institutions that have to create a base of research, so that they're body of work and they're able to share or even create knowledge. Um, and then share it to the wider community is very significant, it's a very significant part of their existence. I think schools can if they don't want to do research and and create new knowledge, at least they can do some incredible amount of documentation. Yeah, so most important thing comes up in these uh, so-called festivals, you may call it or just a school does an activity, documentation. Because in documentation, you are actually preparing the children for journalism, any other career. So you can imagine when you're doing this event, what what segments of the children life are you exploring? So they are doing art artwork in that. They are doing AI artwork in that. Means if you look at a coffee table book, you realize that I didn't know it. One such student of mine was doing a research. They said that, why don't you have a color decode with the monument? I said, how's that possible? So there's an app. You give the name of the monument and put a picture of it. They give you the color codes of that monument. So the book is coming, going to come up beautifully because each monument has got separate color codes. So the pages also will have different colors. I didn't know of it at all. So you know, when you work with the youth and you're open to hearing things. And even I'm very fine opening to principals also. You know, when they tell, Sandeep, do this. Do this. So we all earn that comfort zone page that I always tell them, this is not my subject, so I'm open to it. You just tell me, convince it and I'll just try it. If it fails, it fails, if it succeeds, it succeeds. I think that's the exploring thing. Otherwise, what are you experimenting? You talk a lot about experimental teaching and learning, but are we willing to experiment this way? And something can be a failure like I said. Father already told me, if you had failed in theatre, not education, I would have stopped it. That's it. So it will only stop the first phase itself. Perfect. So I think schools all across the country, no matter where they are from, big city, small city, small town, village, wherever you are. I think, uh, they should try and get in touch with you and and try and explore the opportunity to to start a education through monuments program. Yeah, and they can just explore, means I think there's nothing, nothing to stop them. And there's no copyright. You do what you feel like doing. Go ahead with it. We are not stuck on anything that way. Brilliant. I think the the whole angle of contributing to the body of knowledge that is already there, the local knowledge, I think that it's there, you just have to explore it. Yeah. You just have to explore it. Thank you so much, has been phenomenal talking to you and I really hope that more principles take on this opportunity to run this in their schools. Right. Thank you so much, bye.
